It's killing me but..........

netscriber

A question out of curiosity . Do you think the overlap is due to years and years of work in that area and the line started to get muddier as you progressed and hence you train that way? Or has it always been like that and you have been genetically gifted in that area?

RapDaddyo

I think my longer durations are presently undertrained (relative to my shorter durations) and that my curve will flatten over time as I get more fit. As an aside, I think anaerobic capacity is the decisive factor in a lot of mass start races. IOW, it's why one gets dropped more often than FT. I am doing a lot of work in that area right now and it's really quite fascinating how little work has been done to date. For example, try to find an algorithm for recovery of anaerobic capacity as a function of time at power <FT.

BTW, I'd be happy to continue the dialogue either on another thread or through PM. But, we should return Sly's thread to him. I think more than a couple of people are following his incredible progress. We're all waiting for two benchmarks -- breaking the 200w FT barrier and beating his young friend to the top of a long climb. Go, Sly!

Sillyoldtwit

No, no, you guys carry on. It makes for interesting reading rather than my "put you to sleep" progress report.

Haven't got a clue what the hell you're talking about, but who cares!

Felt stronger in the mountains Sunday, but still not what you would call flying.
I felt I was hardly working with the breathing not far off normal. I sensed the power was there but experienced lactic buildup in the thighs, especially on the last 2 climbs (after 2 hours in the saddle). This of course restricted my perceived rate at which I thought I should be climbing.
I suspect perhaps my LT is pretty low on the climbs, whereas I can go on forever on the flat with no problem.
One encouraging thing though; after finishing a climb my recovery is almost instantaneous. After the last climb on Sunday, heading back across the flat land rice paddies I was doing 30kph into a very strong head/side wind.(without pushing it)
A couple of months back this used to be my speed with no wind.

Tyson (not Sly)

RapDaddyo

I think if you had a PM you would see that you were doing the climbs at a higher power than the flats. When people talk about hills being "hard" I often believe they are simply riding the hills at higher power. If you rode the hills at the same power as you are riding on the flat, I doubt it would be harder or that your fatigue would be any greater than on the flat.

Okay, Tyson it is. But, let me tell you why I like Sly. Sly is Sylvester Stallone's nickname and when I think of him I always think of the original Rocky movie, when Rocky finally charges up the steps in Philadelphia. That's my vision of you when you finally beat your young friend up a long climb in June. Tyson doesn't conjure such an image.

Sillyoldtwit

What about Tyson in his early days when he landed his KO punches?

To me Sly conjures up thoughts of being crafty, wily, guileful, insidious, shifty, slippery, snaky, foxy, vulpine, canny, shrewd, covert, underhand, furtive, stealthy,sneaky,skulking,slinking etc.

On second thoughts, maybe Sly is more appropriate.

Sillyoldtwit

Agreed, but if I then climb at the same power as I ride on the flat I would probably come to a grinding halt.

Seriously though, apart from what I'm doing already, is there anything I should be incorporating in my training to increase lactic tolerance.

I'll answer that for you. "No, continue as your doing now for the time being."
You see RD, I'm getting to know you.

RapDaddyo

No, you won't unless the hills are really steep (e.g., >6%). I proved this to a friend recently on a 3.5 mile 6% grade. Like you, he didn't believe me that he could climb the hill with an easy power that produces ~15mph on the flat (~150w). So, we climbed the entire hill at 150w. Granted, we weren't moving very fast, but when we got to the top he agreed that it was no more difficult than riding at 150w on the flat. The only problem with climbing very steep sections at such power is that bike speed gets so slow that it's hard to keep it balanced. And, depending on how you're geared your cadence can get uncomfortably low. But, you can do it.

You're doing it. Actually, blood lactate and lactic acid get a bad rap. If I'm not mistaken, lactic acid is actually a source of energy (awaiting sufficient oxygen). Your L4 intervals are increasing your lactate threshold (LT) and there is not some different form of exercise that will work better. As an aside, what you're not now doing (that's later) is working on your anaerobic capacity. This will be used for the short pushes above your FT, especially for short climbs. This is indeed a separate resource and is trained separately from FT and LT. That's next, after you break the 200w barrier. BTW, when I speak of the 200w FT barrier, I'm not talking about a 2x20 session. I'm talking about a full hour at 200w, when you short out the entire health club from the sweat pouring off your head in the last 15 minutes.

whoawhoa

Personally, I'd be very interested in an AWC thread.

RapDaddyo

Cool. Fire one up. You might want to read two recent threads, Matches (started by frenchyge?) and Matches Revisited (started by some troll) and others on the topic, to refine your specific questions and interests. There are lots of interesting questions, including training, measurement, deployment in races and (of keen interest to me) recovery rates. It is a complex topic, especially recovery. Andy and others suggest that AWC is made up of two distinct parts, one of which recovers fairly quickly and one of which recovers only after many hours or longer. I happen to think that AWC is hugely important to mass start race performance (even decisive). Very interesting topic.

Sillyoldtwit

RapDaddyo

Let me guess. You priced a PowerTap SL and in Japan it costs more than a bike, right? Just kidding. Why the frowns?

Sillyoldtwit

Because I don't know what you're talking about - yet!

And what do you mean by raising the bar to 200W for 1 hour?????
Everybody knows you're trying to finish me off.

Anyway, today's session in the gym was a first for me.

1x5 @ 180W
1x15 @ 200W

2mins rest

1x5 @ 180
1x10 @ 200
1x3 @ 210
1x2 plus @ 220 just to get the feel of next week's target Wattage. (not too bad)

Can't believe I was only doing 120W a few weeks ago - who was that guy?

PS Had a scary moment in the gym today though. After finishing the above the HR dropped rapidly to 120, then suddenly started rising 125, 130, 135, 138 and rising. I thought, I don't want to know this and pulled the plug, then checked manually - Phew! 120ish. Reminds me of another recent thread where the guy's reading went sky high suddenly. I think if you feel OK, it's the confounded computer gone haywire. Does Bill Gates produce HR meters btw?

TYSON

WarrenG

I think it's very good to do small amounts at a target wattage to get the feel for it and to help prepare yourself for the new level of effort. Whenever I'm preparing for a new target that is say, 5-10% higher than previously I will spend increasing amounts of time at the higher target. 3 x4', one week, then maybe 3x5' another week, then 4x4', and then maybe the 4x5' that was my planned target volume at the new power level.

Just keep progressing without mental limits on your potential.

RapDaddyo

FT is FT. The gold standard is an hour at a constant power. When you nail down FT=200w once and for all, do it right.