Page 14 - It's killing me but..........

15-04.-2006, 09:49 AM

#196

Sillyoldtwit

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Re: It's killing me but..........

Quote:

Originally Posted by RapDaddyo

I don't even need to get to Part B of your post. 15% isn't steep, it's off-the-charts-steep for you at this time. Anything >10% and 200w of power means your bike speed gets too slow to ride in the saddle (<5mph), not to mention cadence (depends on your gearing). So, right away we're talking about climbing out of the saddle and/or climbing at >200w. Those are two topics we haven't even touched on, but the short answer is that climbing out of the saddle is incredibly fatiguing without the right technique and lots of practice. When you watch the pros dance up the mountains in the steep stages of the major tours, you can't see what's going on but they are using their body weight almost entirely. Their arms mainly just pivot the bike on the frame axis (to an optimal angle of 25 degrees IIRC) to position the crank directly under their center of gravity where they let their body weight drive the pedal down. Precisely at the bottom of the downstroke, they pivot the bike. Timing and balance take a lot of practice, especially at a high cadence. Newbies use their upper bodies way too much and get exhausted after ~1 min. So, a long climb out of the saddle is out of the question. Now, as to climbing >200w, you could probably climb for a few minutes at, say, 120%FT (240w). You would empty your anaerobic tank (separate energy system) within ~5mins (not sure because you haven't tested your 120%FT max duration). Again, useful for a short climb but a 5km climb at 120%FT is out of the question.

Short answer: find roads with climbs ~6%. Stay away from 10%+ grades, at least this year. Or, get a mountain bike.

Oy, oy, oy, RD, you have made a terrible presumption here. I've been cycling up that 15% hill for 3 years now. Yes, I used to be out of the saddle but now I ride it with my rear end firmly in the saddle and one cog off the lowest gear, and at a speed of 6 plus kmph and getting stronger (and easier).

I don't think I mentioned another short hill I do (100 meters) which is even steeper than the aforementioned hill. This hill comes 90 minutes into the ride and used to kill me, but I always kept going because if I stopped the mosquitos would get me (in the summer), and I mean dozens of the little b-----ds! Anyway, I now ride this hill the same as the other, in the saddle and 1 cog off the bottom.
But thanks for the explanation on climbing out of the saddle. I'll work on that on other hills.
Tyson

Last edited by Sillyoldtwit : 15-04.-2006 at 10:19 AM.

15-04.-2006, 11:31 AM

#197

curlew

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Location: Indiana USA

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Re: It's killing me but..........

Quote:

Hey Curlew you can't leave people scratching their heads wondering who Basho was.

Tyson, I knew that you would come through with a great description of Basho for us! Thanks for the link. Thumbing through "The Narrow Road to the Interior" I came across this passage that I had underlined heavily. Basho says:

"I felt three thousand miles rushing through my heart"

Isn't that the way we feel when all of those training miles take us to a great day on our bike?

15-04.-2006, 11:47 AM

#198

RapDaddyo

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Re: It's killing me but..........

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sillyoldtwit

Well, I'll put it another way. I climb at ~4w/kg and I avoid 15% grades.

15-04.-2006, 01:02 PM

#199

Sillyoldtwit

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Re: It's killing me but..........

Quote:

Originally Posted by RapDaddyo

Well, I'll put it another way. I climb at ~4w/kg and I avoid 15% grades.

The problem is RD, that "The Hill" is the gateway to all my mountain courses. It starts where suburbia ends and If I don't go up it I go nowhere. Also, 70 plus% of Japan is covered in mountains and "gentle incline" is not a term you can apply to many of them. IOW if you don't want to circle round and round the houses, you have to climb 9% plus climbs. My cyling partner and I regularly do this.
On one of his courses we do sometimes, there is a 2 km climb at I would guess at 12/13% for part of it.

In fact I had a call from my cycling partner the other day. Apparently he and the Japanese group he rides with, went on a 100km ride in the mountains, and on the way home he bonked after climbing a mountain which sounds somewhat similar to the one I found yesterday.

Tyson

15-04.-2006, 01:56 PM

#200

RapDaddyo

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Re: It's killing me but..........

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sillyoldtwit

I'd be really curious to see how many watts you are putting out on these climbs. The main problem with these grades is that unless you can increase power to well over 200w bike speed gets very slow and it's hard to stay balanced. I know because I have intentionally dropped power on such grades to the minimum to see what it is. I plan most of the climbing routes for my club and we have some members with ~150w of sustainable power. I don't want to take them up a climb where their bike speed gets so slow they fall over. They might be a bit upset (with good reason).

15-04.-2006, 03:54 PM

#201

Sillyoldtwit

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Re: It's killing me but..........

Quote:

Originally Posted by RapDaddyo

When I used to ride out of the saddle, I weaved at times with the effort. But not now, steady as a rock! In fact last Sunday was hardly breathing. The hill is 50 mins into my course so was saving myself a bit for the remaining approx 3 hours. As to the watts, I'll let you know when I get a PM.

18-04.-2006, 12:35 PM	#202
Sillyoldtwit Registered User Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: IN PEACE AND QUIET Posts: 1,316	Re: It's killing me but.......... This morning did the best and the hardest session ever in the gym. 1x5 @ 180W 1x10 @ 200W 1x5 @ 220W Five minutes spinning at 35W then 1x5 @ 180W 1x5 @ 200W 1x10 @ 220W The last 5 minutes were not far off purgatory. RD, I think I'm reaching a plateau at 220. I hope it's only an intermediate plateau. Can't imagine 240W for any length of time. PS Did a hard 75km ride on Sunday in the mountains, which I imagine must have sapped some energy but still...................

18-04.-2006, 01:08 PM

#203

RapDaddyo

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Re: It's killing me but..........

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sillyoldtwit

1x10 @ 220W

This is consistent with an FT=200W

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sillyoldtwit

The last 5 minutes were not far off purgatory. RD, I think I'm reaching a plateau at 220. I hope it's only an intermediate plateau.

I think it's too soon to be thinking plateau. If you go a couple of weeks and see no increase in your 2x20s, then maybe you can start thinking plateau.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sillyoldtwit

Can't imagine 240W for any length of time.

I think you could hold 240W for ~5mins, although the last min would be pretty painful.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sillyoldtwit

PS Did a hard 75km ride on Sunday in the mountains, which I imagine must have sapped some energy but still

No doubt about it.

My suggestion is to assume that you are now at FT=200W and start doing your 2x20s at 200W. Next week I'll introduce you to 120%FT intervals. These will help you with the hills up to ~5mins duration. I'm sure you don't believe me, but they're actually not any harder than the 2x20s you have been doing. What makes a high-intensity effort hard is not the absolute intensity, but rather the combination of intensity and duration. The 120%FT intervals will begin to train a separate and distinct energy system, as you continue to train your aerobic energy system.

18-04.-2006, 01:48 PM

#204

Sillyoldtwit

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Re: It's killing me but..........

Quote:

Originally Posted by RapDaddyo

This is consistent with an FT=200W

I think it's too soon to be thinking plateau. If you go a couple of weeks and see no increase in your 2x20s, then maybe you can start thinking plateau.

I think you could hold 240W for ~5mins, although the last min would be pretty painful.

No doubt about it.

My suggestion is to assume that you are now at FT=200W and start doing your 2x20s at 200W. Next week I'll introduce you to 120%FT intervals. These will help you with the hills up to ~5mins duration. I'm sure you don't believe me, but they're actually not any harder than the 2x20s you have been doing. What makes a high-intensity effort hard is not the absolute intensity, but rather the combination of intensity and duration. The 120%FT intervals will begin to train a separate and distinct energy system, as you continue to train your aerobic energy system.

I was going to take the day off tomorrow, but you've inspired me to go for the 2x20 @200. 200W feels quite comfortable at the mo. I'll see how I feel when I wake up tomorrow morning.

PS Have control of the diet at last and have lost more than a kilogram. 2.2 pounds plus

18-04.-2006, 01:59 PM

#205

RapDaddyo

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Re: It's killing me but..........

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sillyoldtwit

PS Have control of the diet at last and have lost more than a kilogram. 2.2 pounds plus

Now I know you're serious about showing your young friend your rear wheel on a climb in May.

18-04.-2006, 05:05 PM

#206

Sillyoldtwit

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Re: It's killing me but..........

RD wrote:

Quote:

I'd be really curious to see how many watts you are putting out on these climbs.

It's difficult to compare the road with the gym. In the gym I ride TTstyle perched on the very point of the saddle, elbows resting on the handlebars and clasping the dislplay with both hands - almost like having tri-bars.
When climbing I sit as far back as I can without losing power, hands parallel and about 18 inches apart on the handlebars in front of me. Arms are slightly bent at the elbow. And here's, where to me, the difference comes in; I drive from the hips as someone told me a long time ago. In the gym I'm sitting right over the pedals and the legs are doing most of the work.
So I would guess, on the hills comparing it with the effort in the gym to generate 220 Watts, I'm generating between 240 and 260W albeit only for a relatively short time, especially the 260W effort which I only muster up for 15% plus grades.
I could be way out, but there you are.

20-04.-2006, 12:27 PM	#207
jeff828 Registered User Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 224	Re: It's killing me but.......... Hi Rapdad I have posted before and your imput was great. I have been doing the suggested 2x20min intervlas (3 of them per session, twice a week) and they have been working great, they were at a cadence of 70-75, my question is if I do the same workout & wattage but at a cadence of 90-95 will that increase my speed as some people are suggesting it does? They say this is called speed work, since I have been doing all muscular power workouts before. Whatever your answer are you 100% sure about it? Thanks again for your help & knowledge Jeff

20-04.-2006, 01:02 PM

#208

Sillyoldtwit

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Re: It's killing me but..........

Well, a strange week in the gym has ended.

Tues wasn't a bad session although a little tired from Sunday's ride.

Wed was a disaster 1x15 @200W and 1x10 @200W My legs were like lead and I was completely and utterly knackered!

I don't think I reached a cadence of 60.

Anyway, forced myself to the gym today not expecting to be able to do much.

Started off at 200W and it felt 10 times better than yesterday, so instead of 2 x20 @200W did:

1x30 @ 200W plus 1x10 @200W at a cadence of around 70, and still had something left in the tank! Can't explain that.

So RD, what's next week's programme? - 120%FT sounds awfully like 240Watts to me.

Jeff wrote:

Quote:

I have posted before and your imput was great. I have been doing the suggested 2x20min intervlas (3 of them per session, twice a week) and they have been working great, they were at a cadence of 70-75, my question is if I do the same workout & wattage but at a cadence of 90-95 will that increase my speed as some people are suggesting it does? They say this is called speed work, since I have been doing all muscular power workouts before

Do you mind revealing what wattage you're working at? Probably make my figures look stupid, but I would be interested to know.

20-04.-2006, 01:03 PM

#209

RapDaddyo

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Re: It's killing me but..........

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeff828

I have been doing the suggested 2x20min intervlas (3 of them per session, twice a week) and they have been working great, they were at a cadence of 70-75, my question is if I do the same workout & wattage but at a cadence of 90-95 will that increase my speed as some people are suggesting it does?

If you ride them at the same power, then by definition you will be riding at the same speed regardless of the road grade or wind. As to whether you will be able to sustain the power longer at the higher cadence, that is possible. I know that I am more comfortable at a cadence near 100, although I have never done a max duration at power test between 70-75 and 90-95. I can almost guarantee that your HR will be higher at the higher cadence, but that is not a measure of your intensity of effort and only serves to underscore the shortcomings of using HR to measure or manage intensity of effort.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeff828

Whatever your answer are you 100% sure about it?

The only thing I am 100% sure of is that I am not 100% sure of anything in this sport. Actually, I take that back. I am 100% sure there are cyclists with more power than me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeff828

Thanks again for your help & knowledge

My pleasure.

20-04.-2006, 02:14 PM

#210

RapDaddyo

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Re: It's killing me but..........

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sillyoldtwit

1x30 @ 200W plus 1x10 @200W at a cadence of around 70, and still had something left in the tank! Can't explain that.

That's awesome, especially the 1x30. That shows you're really consolidating the FT=200W. They'll get easier and easier.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sillyoldtwit

So RD, what's next week's programme? - 120%FT sounds awfully like 240Watts to me.

Want a sneak peak, do you? Okay, here's the deal. Your FT is a function of two things. One, your VO2MAX is an absolute upper limit to your aerobic capacity, but at least as important to FT is your aerobic efficiency. You have been working exclusively on your efficiency and not on raising your VO2MAX. I deferred that because it is highly responsive to training but whatever improvement you are going to get you are going to get most of it quickly. Increasing aerobic efficiency is a much longer process, so I wanted you to get started ASAP.

The classic VO2MAX work is at ~120%FT. Your max duration will be ~5 mins, give or take. What makes a VO2MAX effort hard is not the 120%FT intensity but rather the duration. The first few minutes aren't that hard at all. It's the last couple of minutes and the last minute in particular (of your max duration) that are brutal. But, the adaptation benefit kicks in much sooner than the last minute or two. There's simply no need to ride VO2MAX intervals to exhaustion as some do. The first thing you're going to do is to determine your max duration at 240W. This is a key performance test and also will be the basis for setting the duration of your VO2MAX intervals. IOW, I don't know what the duration of your intervals should be until I know how long you can hold 240W as though your life depended on it. So, you'll do a test at the beginning of your gym workout, warmup at an easy pace for 5mins and then ride at 240W until you absolutely cannot hold 240W any longer even if a brand new, PM-equipped bike is yours for free if you can just hold it for 5 secs longer. When your power drops below 240W, you're done, end of test. Then we'll figure out how much to take off for your intervals (e.g., 1 min). On your gym days, you'll begin with ~4-5 VO2MAX intervals at 120%FT with equal duration recovery at 100W, then as much FT work as your schedule permits (e.g., 20-40mins). It's nothing to be feared, although the max duration test can be a bit unnerving.

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