It's killing me but..........

Bike-206

What do L4, L5, ect refer to? I take it they are training zones, but do they correspond to HR, and if so what are the HR's?

RapDaddyo

The references are to Andy Coggan's training schema, explained here http://www.midweekclub.com/articles/coggan.pdf. The title might lead you to believe this is only about training with a power meter, but all the training levels are characterized in HR and RPE terms as well.

Sillyoldtwit

Last Autumn on the steepest part of my Sunday ride (400metres) I remember thinking, how much longer can I continue to climb up here without dismounting? And I thought, when I can no longer climb up here, maybe I should give up cycling and take up brisk walking like most sensible people of my age do. Now thanks to this forum and the encouragement of RD and others, I'm thinking about just how much faster I can climb it on into the future. I imagine, barring injury or some unforseen circumstance, I've been granted at least a 10 year reprieve.
RD, today in the gym I stepped up to 2X20 @ 160 and managed it without undue stress. In fact I felt I could have extended the last 20, but decided to save something for tomorrow. However, I confess to being a little apprehensive and reducing my cadence to somewhere between 60 -70.
My plan is to consolidate 160 this week and next, and attempting to increase my cadence to 90 as per usual next week. So far the jumps in power have been 20 Watts each time, but I'm not sure I can continue to make these big jumps. Time will tell. Should it prove possible, I think I will be ahead of your 15th of May phrophesy RD in reaching the immediate gaol of 200Watts.

Right Rd, now berate me - I can take it!

RapDaddyo

That's awesome! What I like best is that it's not forced. You're going about it the right way, creating just enough stress and then allowing your body to respond and build more capacity. And, you're being consistent, week to week. I won't be surprised in the slightest if you achieve your immediate goal ahead of my prediction. And, as you increase your power, those hills are going to actually become fun. We had this awesome ride Sunday. There's a 5-mile section of about 3% grade -- not steep but you definitely know you're going uphill. I got things going as soon as we started up the hill by going to the front and picking up the pace. After ~1 mile, there were only four of us and we just kept increasing the pace, starting at ~16mph. Then, somebody picked it up to 18, then somebody picked it up to 20, then somebody picked it up to 21-22. We maintained 20-22 to the end and then pulled into a parking lot to wait for the rest of our group. It was cool because there was this 22-year old kid who turned to me and said, "Wow! I've never gone so fast on that hill. I just kept looking down at my speedometer and thinking, we can't go any faster than this, and then we went faster, and faster, and faster." Before long, you'll be enjoying rides like that. It's cool to make these bikes do what they're designed to do -- go fast.

Sillyoldtwit

What can I say except, awesome! Now where did I learn that from?
At the mo I'm just dreaming about such rides. Last Sunday on the level stretches I felt the power increase, but the hills were still there though they may have levelled out just a teeny weeny bit. Difficult to say, because for the first time ever I rode my course in the opposite direction. The climbs weren't as long duration-wise but were definitely steeper of course.I'm also avoiding my young riding partner as long as I can. Because when I take him, I want it to be decisive and sadistically soul destroying. He actually sometimes goes out with a group of young Japanese, and whereas he used to be the best climber apparently he's now 2nd best. He's invited me to join them sometime; of course he will then be 3rd best!

Sillyoldtwit

Good climbing ability is all about power and weight. My power has increased considerably over the last few weeks, however, the weight has remained virtually static.
When I return home after a good interval session at the gym I am absolutely ravenous. The first thing I eat is a plate of brown rice with a can of tuna or cottage cheese mixed in. That takes care of the immediate protein needs, but then I feel a strong desire for bread (carbohydrates) so I eat a slice of bread and tahini - then I feel the need for something sweet so I gobble down 2 more slices with no sugar added jam. This creates the need for something sweeter so I eat some dried fruit, but that doesn't sate my appetite, so I finally devour some chocolate.
A couple of hours later I can be found in Mista Donuts (Japan) tucking away a high calorie donut. No wonder I'm not losing weight! I lose about 400 calories in the gym and promptly replace the lost calories.
How do you guys cope with severe hunger pangs after a good training session?
I know someone is going to say "willpower" but I'm hoping there's some other method of controlling one's intake.

RapDaddyo

Well, if there was an easy answer to this question, then we wouldn't have 64% of Americans overweight or obese. I don't have any magic pill for you (although they are under development), but regardless of how you approach it you need to effect a change in behavior. Here's one approach, but it may not work for you. If it doesn't work for you, keep trying different approaches until you find one that works. Look at it this way. Climbing speed is driven by your power:weight ratio. The common parameter is watts/kg. Let's say you get to 200w and 70kg by May. That's 2.85 w/kg. If you weighed 2kg less, it's equivalent to adding 5.7 watts to your power. That's why I'm on a mission to lose 10kg by May. For me, it will add 40w to my climbing power! That should give you some incentive.

So, here's the suggestion. There is a free website where you can track everything related to weight loss - consumption and exercise. It's http://www.fitday.com/. Recording your daily consumption is easy - they have all the foods, including most of the brand name foods (e.g., if you eat a bowl of Post Raisin Bran cereal, it has Post Raisin Bran cereal with all the calorie and nutrition data for that specific product) as well as the generic foods (e.g., medium size banana). I like to put in my meals immediately after I eat, so I can see my total calories and nutritional breakdown (carbs, protein, etc.) during the day. My suggestion is that you just record everything for a few days - don't cheat, now. Then take a look at it, day by day. The culprits (high calories, high fat, etc.) will be obvious. In all likelihood, it's a handful of things that you like that really run the numbers up. So, ask yourself if there's something you can substitute for those culprit foods that won't put such a dent in your totals. Or, at least save those foods until the end of the day. Then, you can look at your totals before you eat those items and say to yourself, "Okay, my numbers are great right now. So, let's blow up the whole day and get it over with." You may not lose any weight, but you'll be well informed about why you're not losing weight.

frenchyge

I'm at my best if I eat a meal (even a small one, depending on the ride length) before the ride. If I can't get a 'meal' within ~2hrs before the ride, I'll at least eat a sandwich or banana just before it. Then, I also eat an energy bar about an hour and a half into any ride of 2 hrs or longer.

I try to avoid that 'totally empty' feeling, for the reasons you mentioned. I figure on burning 600-800 kcal/hr while riding, so I have to keep putting gas in the tank.

Sillyoldtwit

Thanks RD and Frenchy as always. I guess I knew when I posted there was not going to be any easy answer. You gave me that link once before RD, so I'll take another look at it. The problem is, living in Japan I probably won't be able to get half the items mentioned. As for eating during the ride, that's not practical of course in the gym. I think they would take a dim view of me chomping on a banana and flicking the skins over my shoulder.

On my Sunday ride on the road I have a banana just before setting off and another half way through the ride, but that doesn't help with hunger pangs when I get off the bike. I think I will have to try to get hold of some Powerbars from somewhere.

Have started my second week of 2 x 20 @ 160W - fairly comfortable and managed to add on some mins to the 2nd interval. Haven't decided yet what to aim for next week. I'll try 2 x 20 @180W and see how it feels. If too high will settle for 170W. Cheers!

Tyson

RapDaddyo

Here's one trick I sometimes use when I feel as though I'm ready to increase my power for a given interval duration. Ride the first interval(s) at your current power (160w), then ride your last (e.g., second) interval at what you think your new power will be (180w). If you find it really hard to complete the last interval at 180w, then you're probably not ready to step up to it for the full set and you might want to try 170w for the full set. If you complete the last interval with no problem and feel relatively comfortable in the last 5 mins, then you're probably ready to step it up to 180w for the full set. If you try to go to 180w for the full set, and if that's too big a step, you're likely to not finish the set or get somewhat discouraged.

Sillyoldtwit

Hey RD, that's very good advice. Doing it the way I plan, may as you say discourage me.

Now I've a big confession to make. Today was the 2nd day of my 2nd week of 2 x 20 @160W. At first I didn't feel like going to the gym, and when I got there, I considered not training on the bike. Anyway, forced myself to get on the trainer and the first interval @ 160 felt very comfortable, so I thought why not try 180W a la RD's trick. Lo and behold it wasn't that difficult, albeit I lowered the cadence to keep　the HR at 142. And to prove I was ready for 180W, I did the last minute at a cadence of 90 plus. Strangely enough it felt better than the previous 3/4 minutes, so I continued at the same rate for another 30 secs and still felt I could keep going, but wisdom prevailed and I decided to save something for tomorrow.

RD, you've said on more than one occasion what a wonderful thing the human body is. What I find even more amazing, is that when many people of my age have resigned themselves to the front of the TV, sinking ever deeper into the sofa and have decided to wait for goddo; here I am striving to attain greater climbing ability on the bike than I've ever had. (and it seems achieving said)

I'm not going to sit waiting for goddo, he's got to come and find me - preferably at the top of a steep climb one day!

The above of course in no small way is thanks to you RD and others who have offered advice.

RapDaddyo

I feel as though I'm wearing out awesome, so this time I'll say, "Splendiferous." It sounds as though your training is really kicking in now. I'm beginning to think my 5/15 prediction for 200w is too conservative. You're going to blow through 200w and not look back. Incredible progress! BTW, you keep referring to dropping your cadence to lower your HR or to keep it at a certain level. Why is that? Are you concerned about your HR being too high, or what? While you can manage your HR with cadence, I think you're best off just riding at whatever cadence feels most comfortable at a given power and ignore your HR. Your heart can handle pretty much anything you can throw at it - it's sort of like the Everready bunny - it just keeps going and going.

Sillyoldtwit

RD wrote:

.

I'm not concerned about my HR but I like to work quite a bit under my MHR.
In that way I feel I'm less likely to overtrain/ overstress the old body. Also by doing the intervals at a 140ish HR, I have quite a bit left in the tank for the final minute or two when I up the cadence to 90 ++.
Having said that, I noticed today, that even with substantially increasing the leg rate in the last minute and half of the 180W interval, I couldn't get my HR up much above 150 - and that was without undue stress. Remember I'm still feeling my way, and perhaps I'm underating my capability. We'll see.

RapDaddyo

There's lots of mythology about HR. But, when making decisions about exercise intensity based on HR, you should keep two facts in mind. First, the heart responds in two ways to increased exercise intensity - increased frequency (beats per min) and increased stroke volume. These two attributes don't necessarily respond in unison. So, remember that HRMs are only measuring half of the heart's response to increased exercise intensity. Second, cardio is only part of a very complex set of physiological responses to increased exercise intensity. I have a power meter and a HRM. Usually, I ignore my HRM and I never use it to decide to back off. Rather, I'll use it to decide that I'm not pushing myself hard enough. IOW, I never think, "My HR is too high, I need to back off." On the flip side, I'll sometimes think, "Gee, my HR is lower than usual, I must be dogging it." That doesn't mean I don't see a value in HRMs. I do see a value in seeing how long it takes my HR to come down after I finish a long interval at ~90%MHR. I want to see it drop like a stone when I finish the interval, and there is no such thing as dropping too fast. If it came down by 50bpm in 10secs, I'd be thrilled.