Mail Condemns Guantanamo Abuses

limerickman

It's YOU who made the claim of Israel based upon religion.
It is YOU who claimed that the Palestine/Israel is about religion.
It is YOU who invoke the Zionist/Jewish claim that God entrusted that land to the Jews from time in memorial?

Only that claim is a lie - isn't it?

If time in memorial, means time in memorial - how come the Jewish text Genesis doesn't mention Israel in chapters 1-34?
How come there is no mention of the statelet of Israel?
How come there is no mention of land being given to anyone for 34 chapters?

And what of the people who were there during chapters 1-34?
They were the ancestors of people that are Muslims.

I did make the point that from 12-20th century that territory happened to be under Muslim rule and everyone (Jew/Christian.Muslim) lived in relative piece.

__________________
.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

Carrera

There are scores of links that make various statements about these issues - you only have to consider that The Passion was run in Aramaic to suit certain sensibilities more than likely. In truth, the crucifixion events would have reflected Greek language at that period. So, the Passion script writers were out of tune.
Leading scholars don't believe Aramaic was spoken in Israel before around 400 B.C.
To settle this debate once and for all I issued a challenge and it's open to everybody. I reprinted a summary of Hamas's objectives which are clearly stated. The challenge is to prove on historical terms that Islam preceded Judaism and that, therefore, Jerusalem should be Islamic e.t.c. Prove Islam was there first is my challenge. I can state there were Judaic religious shrines in the Holy Land as far back as 1000 B.C. So, I ask, in all fairness, where were the mosques, the Clerics, the Imams and Mullahs that were supposedly pushed asided by Jews? Because this is what people are being told took place and they believe it on face value, it seems.

Carrera

"They were the ancestors of people that are Muslims.'

That's perfectly true. But that's my point in a sense. Hamas, in its political statement, seems to me to make its claim to the Holy Land on the basis of Islam. They are saying Jerusalem ought to be Islamic. They are saying Islamic religion is the best and you guys should make way and give us control of all the sites you claimed are part of your heritage. This is what I personally hear them stating on the basis of what they write in that document.
There isn't the remotest hint that maybe, just maybe, Jews and Christians also have historical connections in that land and it's important to understand that's what this debate is about. Religion.
Why don't the three sides simply come to a reasonable agreement? Why don't they simply give and take and negotiate a peaceful agreement?

limerickman

Let's stick to the topic : I have shown you a Jewish website link that states that Hebrew derived from Aramaic.
http://www.krysstal.com/writing_hebrew.html
Aramaic predates Hebrew - which means that the Arabs were there long before the Jews.

Genesis itself states that there were no Jews there in chapters 1 - 34.

You have been proven wrong - again.
Proven wrong by your own Jewish references I might add.

Now we're back to exactly the same situation where we were last night - when confronted with proof, you go off on a tangent and attempt to ignore the proof.

This is tiresome Carerra.

I really feel that I am wasting my time indulging you any further.

As I said to Eoin C/JH/CR who pleaded on your behalf last night - I allowed you latitude against my better judgement.
And within 24 hours it is evident that I am right.

__________________
.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

stevebaby

A spokesman for the us state department has just said that the un report alleging widespread abuse of prisoners at guantanamo bay lacks credibility..."because it is based on hearsay"!
The us intends to allow hearsay evidence at the military tribunals,if the prisoners are ever tried.
This means that any hearsay evidence presented to the tribunals will also lack credibility,obviously.
Do these people have any idea what they are saying when they come out with statements like this?

__________________
I'm Rooting for Chiara!
Drink!Feck!Arrse!Girls!
bastard

limerickman

Hamas did not exist in 1948.
Fatah didn't exist in 1948.

Zionism existed in 1948.

Zionism is a political movement based upon religion.

Who invoked religion to justify their actions.
The Zionists.

The Arabs agreed to the UN mandate for Palestine containing a holemand for Jews (in Palestine) and a homeland for Arabs (in Palestine).
Two entities in one state.

The problem occured when the Zionists decided to secede from that arrangement and put it's sole claim on Jerusalem to the exclusion of all others
in 1948.

That's the genesis of the current situation.

__________________
.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

FredC

I can assure that soapbox is not a' Private Club' at all. Careera is a bigot and fabricator of anti Islamic rhetoric. Personal insults are taken care of within our rules, and are not inclusive of a posters family.
Many have called but few have stayed, this has more to do with volition and persistance . I call upon our hillybilly Redneck friends to shoot you yankees, great men they all are. If you think that Lim and I are in cahoots, then you're totally wrong, We spent two years trying to verbally kill each other over LA.
BTW why don't you go elsewhere?

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The media is a self perpetuating publicity stunt.

Carrera

Er, you provided me with a link that backs up your own view Hebrew originated from Aramaic. So what does that prove? It proves there is somebody else writing articles on the internet that endorses your view.
I'm now entitled to ask how credible your source is. Because everything I read so far puts Aramaic in the fourth century B.C. within Israel. Syria goes back before that, maybe 800 B.C. according to most. It was only at the time 400 B.C. you had duel texts composed of Hebrew and Aramaic by the side in Israel. That's according to archeologists at any rate.
I could quote you a site that claims men didn't land on the moon and the whole thing was all a set-up but mainstream scientists (the Russians included) know people landed on the moon.
My sources tend to be established historians such as Michael Grant, Robert Graves, Richard Pipes, the Greek writer Herodotus, e.t.c. e.t.c.
You claim you've proven me wrong. Let me tell you I've found the biggest hotch-potch of disinformation on Jewish history on the internet that's imaginable, according to whether Jews, Christians or Moslems are writing the articles. There is all sorts of baloney being written which is why I'd like to know who your source is exactly, and for my part, here is a summary of Michael Grant who also knows Greek, Latin and Hebrew. Incidentally he certainly doesn't endorse your views in his history of Israel.
"Michael Grant was born in 1914. Educated at Harrow, he went up to Trinity College, Cambridge, in 1933 to read classics. After graduating, he took up a research fellowship to write the thesis that he would publish as his first book, From Imperium to Auctoritas, in 1946. Perhaps surprisingly, he began his writing career in academic numismatics. Grant’s work ethic was prodigious; rarely two years went by without a new volume appearing, and as he grew older, so his remit widened."
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/articl...1306228,00.html

stevebaby

Anyone interested in the original topic?Perhaps it's time to start a new thread,to be called "Lim,Fred and Carrera endlessly debate the Middle East."

__________________
I'm Rooting for Chiara!
Drink!Feck!Arrse!Girls!
bastard

FredC

Darkboong will be mortified by his omission. Please amend.

__________________
The media is a self perpetuating publicity stunt.

Carrera

Let's tackle the Aramaic question first as you claimed I'm wrong on that score.
Looking through the internet, what strikes me is the amount of fabrication that's being churned out by both Moslems and Christians who run websites. Sometimes Jews distort information too. I've found sites such as askmoses dot com which makes you positively shudder.
None of them seems to have a clue about how secular historians have recorded events.
I quote the following from the net although I don't trust the net as much as standard history sources but this seems to agree with most what I was taught. Except I don't known why he's placing Ezra after the return from Exile as Ezra is a later prophet I seem to recall. The lack of consonants or tenses in Hebrew is correct, though and the song of Deborah was attributed to the Judges period by scolars like Grant and others.

"During the seventy years the Jews were in captivity in Babylon (604 B.C., 586 B.C.), they lost the knowledge of their original Hebrew tongue. The ancient Hebrew text consisted only of consonants, since the Hebrew alphabet had no written vowels."
"Most of the OT is written in Hebrew, but after the return from exile, Hebrew gave way to Aramaic (square Aramaic script), which can be seen in the OT (Ezra 4:8-7:18; 7:12-26 "written in the Syrian tongue"; Dan. 2:4-7:28). The Old Hebrew script was replaced by the Hebrew-Aramaic square script a century before Christ. However, since the Samaritan Pentateuch is in the old cursive script, the square letters must not have been used until after the schism between Judea and Samaria about 432 B.C. (Neh. 13:28)."
http://www.mazzaroth.com/ChapterThr...yOfTheBible.htm

Carrera

Picture the scene 30 years from now if I've not been banned of course. A pot-smoking grey Boogers sitting in a London flat typing insults on a P.C. A grey-haired Lim with a bottle of whiskey in Ireland, sending off another angry mail and a bent-backed Fred C with acheing knees, calling Carrera a bigot e.t.c. All by e-mail.
Meantime, Carrera continues to affirm Aramaic has fewer past tenses than liturgical Hebrew and gets ready to pick up his pension. He posts and prepares his next defence: This time it concerns Moses and the parting of the Red Sea that Boogers insists was actually a river in Iran.
Meantime, the forum members yawn and ask:
"Are they still at it? Will they ever quit debating about Jews and Moslems and the Holy Land? And will Fred wish Carrera a happy new year this time round or will Carrera once more be exempt?"

limerickman

If I was to link every single website that states Hebrew derived from Aramaic,
I would be here for a long time.

If I recall correctly, it was you who introduced the issue of language to this discussion to try to bolster your claim about the Jewish right to occupy land.
It was noticed at the time that you listed a number of languages but completely disregarded Aramaic.
For someone who allegedly studied ancient history and liguisitics - as you have claimed - it is incomprehensible that someone with the background that you claim would "forget" to refer to Aramaic.

The fact of the matter is that baloney is written everywhere.
But it is an accepted fact that Aramaic preceeded Hebrew.
That is a fact whether you wish to acknowledge this or not.

__________________
.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

stevebaby

By then I will be able to afford Mavic Ksyriums for my carbon fibre framed wheelchair.The us will have faded back into the obscurity of subsistence farming.I will probably be ranting about indian and chinese imperialism.
Britney spears will have a cleft palate and a goatee beard due to the huge number of facelifts she will have had.

__________________
I'm Rooting for Chiara!
Drink!Feck!Arrse!Girls!
bastard