Will Iran get the bomb?

Hypnospin

yeah, still gets to be in on the killin' though, even without license i guess...

"you know i'm headed off to war, wanna kill somebody, won't hafta break no kinda law"
-Hot Tuna "queastionaire blues"

__________________
"The dogmas of the quiet past are inadequate to the stormy present...As our case is new, so must we think anew and act anew"
Abraham Lincoln, in his address to congress dec. 1st, 1861

limerickman

Roadhog hit on a good point earlier - if there was any real political leadership in the USA as opposed to follow the consensus, the Democrats should have voted against the Iraq invasion.
(BTW - the opposition in Britain also voted with Blair).

This is the failure of politics today - even when politicians know that soemthing is wrong they won't take a stand for fear of unpopularity.

__________________
.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

limerickman

Bush wanted to start a war - if opposition politicians in usa had opposed the war, instead of abstaining, Bush would be gone from office by now.
Your politicians failed the American (and Iraqi) people

__________________
.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

Hypnospin

this serves well to underscore the fact that the us is in actuality, a one-party representitive system. the actual workings, riders on bills, bills crafted for and by lobbyists, sweetheart deals, low or no interest loans, tax exemptions,
law exemptions, arms dealings, preferential appointments, high- bid family and friend contracts under the guise of "security",
gov't bailouts and corporate welfare to name but a few, are supported both both "sides".
these actual, or substantive workings of the gov't of the us are given less media attention than the symbolic working of the gov't.

these symbolic works includes press releases that are essentialy propaganda in nature, speeches written to control and deflect accountability and consequence, campaign issues of emptional rather than factual content,
press conferences under controlled and manipulated conditions, disaproval of debate regarding claims and statements, firings and resignations to obscure accountability, exploitation of the church and state connection, connecting partiotism with support of the criminal bush syndicate, and verbage of the elected officials which exploits semantics over substance.

these are the two branches of the us gov't, substantive and symbolic.

this makes all the dem vs. repub arguments absurd, and party loyalty a pure example of the neurotic, but it so far has kept the public from demanding any real change in the way of representation of the people, as there emotions are exploited to the extent that real news, factual and objective in nature, is neither welcome nor tolerated, let alone understood in the context of reality.

there are some exceptions, berkeley, ca is a center of scrutiny and opposition
to many political issues.

i feel so strongly of the above as to only vote "third party candidates", primarily peace and freedom and green.

and do not bother to tell me this is how bush won by the "margin" that he did,
via these alternative candidates votes, when 20+ million dems vote outta their party. where are they now? lyin' low i guess.

don't blame me, i voted peace and freedom.

yeah, this is my rant, don't mean to lecture anyone, obviously there are those who here are far more politcaly educated than i, unquestionably.

yet, the "elected" officials of the us gov't would have us believe they are in the know of all this "intelligence", which justifies their every profitable move, and therefore you should just pay your taxes and wave the flag, as it is all so complicated, far too much to be understood.

if anyone can state facts or even opinions to the contrary so be it.

__________________
"The dogmas of the quiet past are inadequate to the stormy present...As our case is new, so must we think anew and act anew"
Abraham Lincoln, in his address to congress dec. 1st, 1861

lwedge

Team work I say... (don't forget the thund'ah from down und'ah).

__________________
If your traveling to the LakeTahoe, Apple Hill, Folsom area ? Then check out Charles Lee's site for some great information on rides, maps and events in this Northern California area. .
http://www.beautifulvista.com
Great wine !
http://www.chevalierwinery.com/

Carrera

That was clearly a massive mistake. I was stunned people voted Blair back in - totally stunned. The fact people seem to believe Blair somehow stands for the working classes when, in truth, he's an upper-class toff, is beyond comprehension. Even Charles is critical.
Why I wonder did people over here reward Blair for encouraging that particular war and virtually dismantling democracy in this country, let alone Iraq? I mean, he was practically taking delight in Bush's plans to go to war and adding coal to the flames. Remember how Clinton let him have it straight prior to that for trying to bog Americans down in a war in Yugoslavia? Doesn't Blair just love to give those creeping, fawning speeches?
I think this Labour Party has truly been a disaster for Britain - possibly the most dictatorial, smug, right-wing party we have ever witnessed. Whether people will be taken in by this Brown as leader idea I have no idea but surely the electorate isn't that dumb?

davidmc

He asked the congress for the authority to use "legitimate" force. The dem's voted for the use of "legitimate" force. They didn't vote for the use of force based on hen-pecked intel of a dubious nature filtered through Herr Rove. so, the dem's DID NOT vote to go to war, only to use force as necessary. As the world now knows, the Bush Criminal Syndicate (hereafter known as the BCS) mislead the Congress by stating that war was the last option when in fact the BCS was planning for war during his inauguration They-Bush, Cheney, Wolfowitz, Perle, & the rest of the lying bunch should be removed/dispatched from office at the soonest time available. Ideally, tomorrow

__________________
I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death.
George Carlin
US comedian and actor (1937 - )

davidmc

Surely you jest How old are you anyway Just wondering.

__________________
I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death.
George Carlin
US comedian and actor (1937 - )

davidmc

Calm down desert_PUP How's Representative Cunningham (R)adjusting to prison-life these days

__________________
I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death.
George Carlin
US comedian and actor (1937 - )

Hypnospin

dave, you got a hard row to how here by defending the democrats in their unwavering support for bush and all his war efforts, let's look at the voting record of anything remotely involved with the support of bucshco expenditure and perpetration, with little exception (and i do not mean to demean those who gave the "nay" vote, as i know who that is) there was not then and there is not now any real dissent by those in office, once again, we need not look further than the voting record for these items.

__________________
"The dogmas of the quiet past are inadequate to the stormy present...As our case is new, so must we think anew and act anew"
Abraham Lincoln, in his address to congress dec. 1st, 1861

limerickman

Iraqi's have always voted - OK there was only one party to vote for (Saddam).

Bit like America (and here) you might think that you have a choice - but all main parties are the same.



That's what i said, moron.
I said if they had voted against the war at the time, Bush would be gone by now.
Instead they voted and supported Bush because they thought the decision was popular.





yep, they're your politicians - they're American democrat and/or Republican.
They're American.

You're American aren't you? Then they're your politicians too.

Oh and while I'm here - yep, we're the most prosperous nation on Earth according to the Economist magazine.
We have an economy that is the envy of the world - according to surveys.
We outperform every other economy.

Prosperous yes.





he wanted war all right.

__________________
.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

limerickman

Dave - I can see the conduct of both parties makes you annoyed concerning Iraq and the lead up to war there.
(only natural).

But to try to exonerate the democrats from their appeasing that clown Bush isn't accurate.
I know that Kerry made references to the war during the presidential campaign but even Kerry said that he didn't want to undermine the president in a time of war (for fear of being perceived as unpatriotic).
That to me is garbage : The democrats should have had the collective will to say "no, we don't support this and we don't support you".

My point and I said it at the time is for Americans to tell Bush that he bloody well lied about the war and that he is responsible for the death toll.

Frankly, I am more concerned with the Iraqi deathtoll.
At least Americans have a choice here - they're in iraq by choice.. Unfortunately, the Iraqi's have no choice in the matter.

Hundreds of thousands of Iraqi's have been killed because of the illegal, unethical, unjust war.

__________________
.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

limerickman

I agree with your points entirely : Bush went to Yale, Kerry went to..Yale.
Seems to me that both men came from well-to-do backgrounds.......they probably share a lot of values.

My point? Both political parties to a very large extent share this same backgrounds/values.

But for a few exceptional issues, policy and strategy are the same regardless
of which party is in power or out of power.
And it's the same here.
It's the same in Britain and in Germany.

In other words real change will never happen because both parties are on the inside looking out.
They may have different logo - they may have different party names - but they're the same in essence.

That;s why when Iraw blew up kerry should have made the running.
It would have created differences between the parties.
What didn't help I suppose is that Iraq at that time was not a priority in the voters minds.

__________________
.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

jhuskey

It is the same almost everywhere,as in people want control, which comes from power,which is fueled my money.
Power to influence others,power of life and death.
Power is like a drug ,the more you get the more you want and some are born addicted and or molded into addicts.
One of true weak points of the human race.

__________________
Sobriety is over rated!