Israeli: Iran bought missiles from N.Korea

limerickman

In absolute terms, all torture and murder is wrong.

But let's be crystal here : the regime in Saudi, the regime in Iran, the regime in Iran, the regime in Pakistan - never, to my knowledge, attempted to portray themselves as anything other than what they are.

Unfortunately, the USA attempts to say one thing - while doing another.
The USA's foreign policy has meddled in the internal affairs of more country's than any other nation on earth.

I don't expect you to acknowledge that this is the situation because many, many Americans either do not know what their country does abroad or they do know what their country does abroad but refuse to acknowledge that.

No political system is perfect for sure.

I oppose most of America's foreign policy - be the USA goverment Democratic
or Republican for years.
I have done so for years because we're exposed in my country to information
about the reality of Palestine, the reality of Cuba, the reality of Guatemala.
As a country we have always supported the underdog - and long may that continue.

I know that 99.9% of Americans are good decent people.
But I also know that 99.9% of Americans would oppose what their own goverment does abroad - if they lived in country's like Palestine, Guatemala, Cuba and Iraq, to name but a few countries.

__________________
.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

limerickman

I believe that Bush doesn't give a damn about anyone - including his own fellow citizens.

the problem for the rest of us is that he and his policies interfere with the rest of the world.

If America chooses to ignore Bush's ignoring of their biggest natural disaster in years, that's their own affair and they can perish on their own rock.

My concern is that that warmonger is attacking regions and regimes - and states that he does so in names of all of the rest of us.

Well, George Bush doesn't attack anyone in my name, let me tell you.
If I can paraphrase the words of your hero, Ali, "I ain't got no quarrel with any Iraqi/Afghani"

__________________
.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

wolfix

I need to know the reality of Cuba ..... This is what I have seen in reality.... Now I have not been exposed as you have been , except I have been to Cuba. I have been among the Cubans in the early 70's that were driven out of their country by Castro who promised a better land. To this date he has not delivered......
He has such a great country women and mothers put their children on make-shift rafts to try and get to America. We are not sure as to how many try this.....Maybe the sharks that patrol the area have a better idea.
Citizens are not allowed to leave and because Cuba has such a wonderful government Castro knows that there is only a small chance that they will return. Cuba has 3rd world status because of Castro, not America.
And why is this America's fault? The answer you will give is how the embargo hurts Cuba..... Would free trade make Castro any different?
Castro revoult was never about the people, it was about his people. He has had over 45 years to change the country and it is more backwards then it ever has been.

Castro's government has done nothing to try and close the gap between governments. Why should he? The elite in Cuba still live well. He changed nothing. Any form of democracy would put a noose around his neck at the hanging..... He dictates through fear, not choice. Guns, not votes.

Liberals love to scream about Cuba..... I doubt if 99.99% of them have ever met a Cuban. Cuba will be better off upon Castro's death. The reason liberals love Cuba and Castro is he is a symbol of standing up to America. The only thing is that the people of Cuba have suffered because of Castro, not America.

Americans are just as well traveled as Europeans..... And we are just as educated.

Europeans love to attack America's policy's towards other countries. But then when it comes to foreign aid we are also turned to...

Liberals love to scream "Let the UN take care of it." Can anyone tell me when the UN has really handled anything correctly? Has any country ever taken the UN seriously ?

__________________
"I rule my world with a cellphone."

limerickman

I've visited Cuba twice.
I was there in the early 1990's and I was there approx 10 years later.

Have you ever visited Cuba, Wolf?
You say you were among the Cubans? Is that among the Cuban's in Cuba? Or is that among the Cuban's in America (Fla) ??

But just to set the context - Shannon Airport is a 45 minute pedal away from where I live. For decades flights to and from Havana have operated between Shannon and Havana. We have many many Cuban people among us here in Ireland. I have met Cubans living here too.
The Cubans I have met here would never countenance going to the USA.
These people want to have nothing whatsoever to do with your country.

You may well consider Cuba to have gone backward.
I think that Cuba has made great progress in many areas.
Full adult literacy rates for example. Free medical care for all it's citizens.
Free university education for all it's citizens.
Highest number of trained medical doctors per head of population in the world.
Economically Cuba has suffered because of your country's embargo.
Thankfully countries around the world have chosen to ignore your country's threats and have traded with Cuba. This country trades with Cuba, I am delighted to say.

The Cubans who I met in Cuba and two separate occasions told me - personally - that they supported the Cuban goverment.
One gentleman Ichatted with told me about life under the Batista regime before 1959. Cubans were left to starve. Havana was the home of the US Mafia. Cuban's died of malnutrition while fat cats supported by your country's administration wined and dined.

No goverment is perfect, Wolf.

And a couple of other issues - if American's are so well travelled as you suggest - how come only a small percentage of American hold passports?
You do need a passport to travel.

As regards education and America, I've met many Americans who are well educated. I've met Americans who have no education.
This applies to most nationalites.

But awareness and exposure to what is happening in the world isn't about education per se.
It's about access to information primarily.
It's my view that most Americans I have met haven't got a clue about what is happening in their own country, never mind about what might be happening in the rest of the outside world.

After all they have no need to know about what's happening abroad.
And that is the kernel of the problem, if you think about it.

__________________
.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

cavedog

I believe I can speak with some authority here, as I live close to Cuba, and the area where I live has a large Cuban population. In fact, my second ex-wife is Cuban. That makes my daughter half Cuban. I know a -lot- of Cubans who now reside here in the US. And they are all in agreement on one thing. Castro is a butthead.

I agree with you wolfix. Castro conned the Cubans, and in the words of The Who, "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss".

Greed and evil crosses all borders, all divisions of humanity. Pointing to the mud on someone's shoes does not make yours any cleaner. Those people who scream the loudest are usually the ones with the most to hide. etc, ad nauseum.

The US hasn't been a pargon of virtue. And our leaders are human and have made mistakes. Or just been bad people.

Just. like. every. country. on. the. planet.

If anyone wants to bash the US, go ahead. I believe in the Freedom of Speech. Sometimes you have to listen to find out how messed up something, or someone, is.

But to be so simplistic as to blame so many of the world's problems on one country, when the subject countries are in fact, occupied by other human being, each a lump of good and evil, well, I've got a great deal for you on some land about 60 miles west of Tampa.

__________________
---
Logic is a way of going wrong with confidence

www.clancavedog.com

www.BikingFlorida.com

limerickman

Cubans based in Florida, with respect, wouldn't be impartial on the subject of Castro I would suggest.
It's not rocket science to suggest that those Cubans would be in Cuba if they agreed with Castro - the fact that they don't agree with Castro comes as no surprise.

I take it Cave, that you've never been to Cuba either?

__________________
.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

cavedog

I believe you have been conned. My brother in law has been to Cuba twice. He has family still there. And he tells a much different story. Of mind numbing poverty, a police state, where everyone lives in fear, and a great show is given to vistors. He was told where he could go, whom he could talk to. I would love for you to sit down with the people who have risked their lives to reach land here in Florida. I see them every day. The sacrifices made are simply unimaginable to you or I. Why would they risk the lives of their children if it is such a paradise? Do you know anything about the status of children in a Cuban family? Children are the sole reason for parents to exist. And to place those same children on a raft and attempt the journey across the Florida Straits? I salute each and every one of them, and I cry for those who didn't make it.

The Cubans you meet where either in fear of their lives, or agents. And those whom are allowed to leave the Island Paradise are deemed friendly to Castro. As for the other statistics you referenced, I view them with skepticism. Stats are like a bikini. What they show is interesting. What they hide is vital.

I think that you are short changing Americans on the information issue. Granted, some have their heads in the sand. Just like the majority of the rest of the world.

And here is an opinion that I'm sure will evoke a response:

America is but a reflection of the globe in general, not the other way around as most would have it. For all of my life, I have heard how bad America is. But everytime I have deployed on a humanitarian mission, the people I have helped have been just like the people anywhere else. They were in a jam, and I was glad I could help them. I accepted their thanks with a solemn nod, and did not bring it up again, 'fore I know the price of pride to accept the aid.

As for not knowing what is happening in our own county, perhaps you aren't as knowledgeable as you think. American is a country of immigrants. From every country, every town on this tired planet. Again, a reflection of the globe. Americans don't believe what they see on TV. Hollywood is a whole 'nother realm, not the real world. The America you see on TV doesn't exist. Forget MTV, VH1, Spike, CNN, FOX, etc.

Nothing makes me snicker more than another group of people judging another, with self indulgent smugness. I know the faults of this country. And I work every day to correct them. I believe in the Palestinian cause. I don't like the current Israeli government. Nor do I like a lot of other governments. But I didn't vote in those countries. I don't like GW. I hate Big Oil. And I don't like seeing this planet turned inside out.

But I am an American. And when another dog barks, I bark too.

Cordially

__________________
---
Logic is a way of going wrong with confidence

www.clancavedog.com

www.BikingFlorida.com

limerickman

The proposition that I was speaking with "agents" in Cuba is outlandish and
disingenuous on your part.

The people I spoke to were ordinary citizens of Cuba.
In fact, I did speak to a broadrange of people some of whom I know to have been members of "official" Cuba and others who are ordinary citizens with little or no interest in the political system of Cuba and who hold no position of influence in Cuba.

In relation to people fleeing Cuba - I can only speak of those people who are resident here in Ireland who I have met and here by choice and have not made their way here on a raft.

In respect of people being unaware of the outside world - because we are a small nation, through necessity we have to be aware of the world outside our borders.
This is not the case in your country.
And for you to suggest that people in my country have the same level (lack?) of awareness as the people of your country, doesn't hold, I suggest.

In respect of providing aid - i think you'll find my country per head of population contributes the highest level of donations in the world.
Because of our history, because of our involvement in humanitary/missionary work throughout the world, the awareness of poverty throughout the world is
very high here.

Finally, you refer to Hollywood, MTV etc and appear to imply that my view of your country is conditioned by that media prism.
Let me assure you that my knowledge of your country and it's people is informed through education, business dealings with US nationals here and in the USA (I've been to your country a dozen times), through sporting connections in the sport of cycling also.

__________________
.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

wolfix

I stated I have been to Cuba..... I came within 3 days of being born there. I visited there in the 90's thru Mexico. I lived among the Cubans in the Keys and Miami... That has a population of Cubans close to the population of all of Cuba itself.

The reason the Cubans you know would never come to America is because chances are great they would not be allowed to live. Seriously. Cubans have a long memory and they never will forget who supported Castro. There is a lot of bad blood among Cubans toward the elite in Cuba. The Cubans that are living in Europe are there more likely representing Cuba in business. They are not alllowed to leave Cuba upon their own accord.....

All the advantages you have stated also apply to prisoners in the American prison system. But Cubans , like our prisoners lack the most important thing .... The right to choose what they want. And deep down, that is what really matters.

Your friends that you speak of , of Cuban nationality will tell nothing but the party line. If they spoke out about cuba, they would never see the light of day again if they returned.

And if all these countries are helping Cuba as you say, why is the country deep in poverty???

Why do mothers put their childrens lives on the line to escape?

Why are not Cubans allowed to travel freely?

The economic state of Cuba..... Tourism is the largest industry in Cuba. 93% of that is owned by the state. When you were in Cuba chances are great the hotel you stayed in was run by the military. But when you say America does nothing to help Cuba you must understand the remmittence policy of Cuba. I know you understand economics better then most. Cubans are allowed to recieve money from family memebers from other countries. Of which the majority come from the US. This number approches that of the tourism dollor. It is close to a billion dollors a year that Cuba recieves from the US citizens. Cuba would collapse if not for this money. It is far larger than any other industry in Cuba other then tourism.


There is a reason many Americans do not have passports. 1st of all the US is almost the size of Europe. And add to that Canada and Mexico, the area in which we can travel in is immense. A passport is not needed to enter Canada or Mexico. And many of the islands south of us.

European countries tend to be much smaller, more like states over here. So traveling from country to country where a passport is needed is done far more often the we have to ...... The closest country I live from presently is 500 miles away .....

I can travel 1000's a miles north of me, 1000's of miles south of me, and thousands of miles east of me, and 1000's of miles west of me......

If I traveled east from my place the 1st place I would need a passport would be probably Shannon airport...... 4,000 miles away.

If I traveled west I would go abot 6,000 miles before I needed a passport.

If I traveled south I would go over 2,000 miles before I needed one..


As far as American's not having a clue as to what is happening in the world is not even close to being the truth. Europe has some pretty back country people too....

It seems that way to you because you attach yourself to issues that are import to you and Europeans. The international issues that are important to people here in the US may not be important to you.
The biggest issue we have going on now is immigration..... Europeans only know abiout this through the media. It affects our lives in a very real way. Last week I watched INS raid a Mexican resturant across the street fom my place. They nailed about 9 illegals. I felt bad about the illegals, but the owner has everything coming to him.
To you in Europe this is only news on the TV....... Americans have as much perspective as Europeans on international events .

__________________
"I rule my world with a cellphone."

limerickman

I can see that the discussion about Cuba will not progress from the stated positions on either side of the debate about Cuba.

Perhaps we ought to agree to disagree and leave it at that.

In respect of travel - that was the point I made earlier.
Americans don't need to travel - you can travel thousands of miles within your own nation.
The need to see the world is restricted because essentially the requirement to see the world is restricted, given the size and range of your own country.
And that's what I meant when i said that this is part of the problem.
Most Americans never venture outside of the USA.
Therefore their exposure to different culture, different sources of information, different viewpoints, is restricted.
But also because most Americans don't travel outside the USA, therefore a sense of intangibility is inevitable when it comes to the outside world.

I am not suggesting that Europe is full of people who have a full knowledge of international affairs.
Far from it.
But what I am suggesting is that most Americans because they're inside the USA - will have had no exposure to the consequences of your country's foreign policy.

As regards the immigration issue - we have seen coverage of that issue here.
The media suggests that rounding up immigrants would be harmful to the USA because those immigrants do the work that others can't (or won't) do.
But because the USA wants everyone to be documented, illegals are going to be thrown out if they don't have their paper work.
The media tell us that there are about 11m illegal immigrants.

__________________
.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

cavedog

I agree



I believe we are talking about scale here. The USA is not a loaf of bread. It is not homogeneous. You can travel 200 miles and be in a different culture. Here in the Tampa Bay area, the culture is predominatly Cuban. Driven 500 miles north, northwest, northeast, and you could be in Asian, Irish, Scottish, German, Russian, Slav, <insert culture of choice here>. Heck, ride 10 miles and you can find pockets of another culture. America is a mirror of the world. Our society covers a broad spectrum of humanity, due to the fact that everyone, with the exception of the Native Americans, are either a descendant of an immigrant, or one themselves. As to the information, I believe you are shortchanging folks here.

And yes, given the mass media, a large percentage of Americans are fed pat news. -Just like the rest of the world-. Drop down into a community anywhere, and most folks are worried about what happens locally. I simply do not buy into the notion that someone, somewhere else, has a better grasp of the world events than anybody else. People are people the world over. You may know what is happening in the Middle East, but what do you know about the conditions in Samoa? Given the internet and the availability of information, to present the idea that one culture is more knowlegeable in everything is supreme arrogance.



Agreed. And again, just like the majority of humanity. Here is the thing. And I speak with the conviction of someone who has looked into quite a few people in the eye in other counties. Local events are more important than what happens to someone 1000 miles away. Unless you have the luxury of having your survival needs taken care of, you simply can't worry about other people. Granted, Capitalism can cause grief. But America is not the only county to embrace it.


This is a problem. IMO, Americans have seen what is going on in France with the immigrants, and do not want to repeat it. The issue at hand, is, as you pointed out, is -illegal- immigrants. There are many arguments within this issue, just as there are in France. But again, here is the root. Does a illegal immigrant have a right to the same social services as a taxpayer? Medical? Food? Jobs? Undocumented aliens have suppressed the pay (I will do it cheaper) for certain jobs to the point that you can't live on those wages. What about a living wage? Do you blame legal folks for not wanting to work 70 hours a week for a paycheck that will not pay your rent? I understand the wish to better yourself. And as the son of the son of the son of a Scottish immigrant, I welcome those who wish to come here. But you have to follow the rules, just like everyone else. Don't try to cut in line, because I will call you on it.

__________________
---
Logic is a way of going wrong with confidence

www.clancavedog.com

www.BikingFlorida.com

Carrera

I didn't support the Iraq War and didn't think the Iraq situation was so unstable it demanded full invasion. However, I still find it very odd there were no protests over human rights abuses in Iraq. O.K., granted, women enjoyed more freedom in Iraq than in most other Arab States but the people, as a whole, didn't enjoy freedom of expression, freedom of press or the rights we have in Europe. They were scared to talk to western journalists.
So, I kind of wonder how Darkboong would be reacting if, say, Americans didn't have the right to criticism or a free press or maybe faced brutal torture if they criticized Bush. So far as I know, Bush still hasn't stooped to torturing civil libertarians or democrats.
So, it's the same with Iran. There are no protests over people possibly being flogged in public or having limbs amputated in such theocracies. People here will protest and make images of Bush to parade in the streets but Iran gets off scott free.
I'm not on about supporting military action against Iran specifically, simply condemning theocratic rule and calling for the human rights of Iranians to be respected by the clerics.
Let's not kid ourselves these people are not progressives. The liberals in the U.K. are hugely mistaken if they imagine Iran stands for progressive ideals and tolerance. They should protest against the death penalty in the U.S. but they shouldn't forget Iran either, where things are a heck of a lot worse.

Carrera

Well, here you do make some very good points. You mentioned Ali and one aspect here is he also represents the U.S.A. as does Jesse Jackson. The better side of America, I guess.
It always seemed to me there's been a struggle between repressive, Hoover-style totalitarian America and the freedom-loving Americans such as Ali and company for decades.
Let's face it we've been here before. Hoover spied on Muhammad Ali and he spied on King as well. Even Clinton was spied on and certain powers that be sought to undermine him, undermine the human rights agenda and set civil liberties back e.t.c.
I think Americans will come to see the Iraq war as an error and will probably elect a more liberal government as they have done in the past. Yes, Bush is indeed a warmonger but he's also limited by democracy and a free press.
In Iran, however, there is no tradition of democracy (except maybe the Shah years). Human rights abuses are pretty grim and society very repressive. So, I'm saying, sure, protest over the wrongs in the U.S.A. and let's hope the U.S. finds itself a better president in future and does away with public executions in bible-belt states.
But let's also remember how many women in the Middle East could face public lashes just for sleeping with another man and committing adultery.

Carrera

I have a female friend in New Jersey and she is really mad over Mexicans coming over the borders.
It's funny as I had friends from Chile, Mejico, Colombia e.t.c. and I found these people to be very polite, hard-working and pleasant. However, she is basically too mad to view things more calmly. She snaps back that these guys are illegals and blackmailing the government to legalise them after jumping the queue. That's how she sees it. She's so hopping mad she was on about volunteering to help with border patrols.