Why Cycling will never be accepted by road users PERIOD

Originally Posted by Jeytown

Good Morning or afternoon to anybody who reads this

this is more of a gathered opinion by people i have talked to

taxi drivers

bus drivers

physios

my wife ?

as a cyclist myself i am fairly curteous and safe i adopted an idea i saw from another cyclist i kittesd my bike out in what i could afford in lights and reflective vests

my question arises from teh idiots that possess a bike but choose not make themselves identifiable on teh road and then have the gaul to get upset when they almost get killed.

my statement is this

" when you cycle on the road is it the responsibility on the cyclists to provide his own safety gear or is the responsibility of the bike shop"

my answer to this is that it falls squarely at the bike shops feet

imagine buying a car and being told that for you to be safe it is your responsibily to go and buy the lights, doors and, seat belt ?


i might be wrong i just wanted to say that of all the bike shops ive been at they havent presented me with an option to get myself kitted out with safety gear.


the argument that i might not use the road all that often is spurious at best when do you not use any part of the road when getting to the park or the cycling track?

has any cycling website ever offered any deals to promote safety ?

look my intention is not anger or infuriate i simply am asking whenever cyclists myself included talk about safety we expect that cars will see us why is it not time we looked at ourselves and provided a working party on this issue.

that we could take to our bike shops and online stores and bike outlets

thanks

JEYTOWN

Originally Posted by Edudbor

I'm not a cyclist (not yet anyway). I've clocked exactly *zero* minutes on my bicycle so far (bought it today). So, I feel I'm a good candidate to give the 'drivers' perspective; or at least my own views on the issue....

The reason I didn't like (and still don't like) people on bicycles isn't because they don't follow certain safety rules. I rarely drive at night, and I even more rarely, see someone on a bike without appropriate safety gear. The simple truth is, I don't like cyclists because they are fairly annoying.

Really, I don't mean that to be offensive. But, look at it from the perspective of a driver. The law says bicycles and cars are supposed to share the same roadways and follow pretty much the same laws. If I'm driving down a 1 lane road, with no bike path or shoulder - with a speed limit of 55mph and a cyclist is in front of me doing 15mph that's annoying. I'd be equally annoyed if another car was doing 15mph in front of me. Passing the biker often means crossing over into oncoming traffic and is just generally a minor annoyance.

Now, I *fully* understand (now more than ever) that in most places (like where I live) the cyclist doesn't particularly WANT to be on that stretch of road. He'd rather be in a bike lane, or on a street with a speed limit of 25. He's worried that I'm not going to see him, or worse, *WANT* to hurt him; and he'd much rather have me going a mere 10 mphs faster than him instead of 30mph.

I could be wrong, but that's my take on it. If the bicycle could keep up with the flow of traffic, I wouldn't mind it at all. And, yes, I realize I'll now be riding my bike to work and pissing off other people who feel the same way as me...but there is no possible route that will let me avoid these types of roads. I don't like it anymore than they do. And while they will be annoyed with me, I'll now be annoyed with them. Because now cars are a headache for me.

Originally Posted by NORECUMYET

Common. What's the most amount of time you've ever had to wait in order to get around a bicycle? If it was more than one minute I would be very surprised, and I bet it wasn't more than a few seconds. The law states that the bicycle has the right of way in your particular situation. No matter how slow he's going. Just like when you get stuck behind a tractor on a rural road. He's not doing anything wrong.

If you get that annoyed by a thirty second delay, hell even five minutes, then you're simply not allowing yourself enough time to reach your destination. That's not the fault of the bicyclist. That's your own inability to plan a simple trip. I just hope you don't show your annoyance by swerving toward the bike, or honking, or yelling out the window, cause if I'm the guy in front of you on the bike and you get too rambunctious for my tastes, you're going to end up with a face full of bear repellent.

Originally Posted by Edudbor

Like I said; I wasn't trying to offend anyone - but that is the feeling I have. Looking at it logically, from the perspective of the driver...

A bicycle on the road causes me to slow down/have to pass into oncoming traffic. A bicycle on the road gives me *no* benefit. Anytime you have something that causes problems (even minor ones) and gives no tangible benefits - people are going to dislike it.

Legally, a bicycle has the same rights to the road as a car. But, if you drove down a 55mph road at 20mph I promise you, you'd run into a lot of problems. Even if there is not posted minimum speed limit; it won't be long before a cop pulls you over. And you can explain to him how you are going the same speed you do on your bicycle and the car and the bicycle follow the same laws...yadda, yadda, yadda; but odds are you'd be driving away with a ticket.

Originally Posted by Edudbor

I'd never honk or yell at the bicycle rider; but I find it pretty....pathetic...that you'd first point out what the law has to say about bicycle riders and cars - and then, in the same breath, threaten to physically assault me for getting 'too rambunctious'. If someone yells at you, or honks at you; you have no legal right to spray them with bear repelant. Besides which, I drive with my windows up (I wear contacts and the wind will dry out my eyes); so your bear spray would be pretty ineffective.

Originally Posted by e0richt

actually, you are full of it here I do it here all the time.... If I were to get into a left lane in order to make a left turn in a parking lot, on that kind of road, I wouldn't be worried about a ticket because its perfectly legal to do that, I would be worried a JAM wouldn't be paying attention and I would get backended...but no cop would bother me...


what I think is worse, is the fact that you recognize that a cyclist would slow you down only a couple of minutes and that bothers you... "a bicycle on the road gives you no benefit.." uh, actually it is to your benefit due to less carbon emissions but you can't see very well past your own steering wheel I guess...

Originally Posted by Edudbor

It's a minor pain in my ass, so I have a minor dislike of bicylists.

Originally Posted by e0richt

Im sure they have a minor dislike of you too...

Originally Posted by Edudbor

L
I'd never honk or yell at the bicycle rider; but I find it pretty....pathetic...that you'd first point out what the law has to say about bicycle riders and cars - and then, in the same breath, threaten to physically assault me for getting 'too rambunctious'. If someone yells at you, or honks at you; you have no legal right to spray them with bear repelant. Besides which, I drive with my windows up (I wear contacts and the wind will dry out my eyes); so your bear spray would be pretty ineffective.

Originally Posted by NORECUMYET

First of all, your name speaks volumes. E, DUD, and BOR. Now you moron. When I say, "too rambunctious", what I meant is this. If the guy doesn't stop with insults and actually assaults me with his car. And yes, swerving towards a bicycle to scare him or her is the same thing as assault with a deadly weapon. In the case of being assaulted I believe I have every right to wail the crap out of the offender. This includes blasting them with bear repellent. You mention driving with your windows up. So what. The first thing I would do in your case is break the window.

Let me be very clear here. I DO NOT ATTACK PEOPLE. If I am assaulted I WILL defend myself. Thats's what I was talking about. Now back to you again. I've read a couple of your other posts. Please do the rest of us a favor. Don't lump yourself in with us. Please don't help us. It's quite obvious that you would have a very difficult time getting along with anyone, in any situation.

I'd have to say that you're probably the one in ten thousand I refer to that's stupid enough to believe that you have more of a right to the road than I do. You mention over and over about how you get annoyed. Tough shit you little weasel. Go live on an island where you don't have to associate with anyone else. Poor baby, you get annoyed if you have to show up to your Joseph Mengele fan club meeting thirty seconds later than you would have if it were not for that evil bike rider.

You keep talking of being STUCK behind a bicycle on a long country road where you have NO way to get around them. It sounds to me like you either need to grow some huevos and learn to drive, or simply STAY OFF THAT ROAD. Do you really think you're going to get sympathy here because you get slowed down by a few seconds once in a while? Get over yourself. There's nothing that you could do that would be so important as to get you "annoyed" because you might have to wait a few second behind a bicycle. Have you never had to learn what to do if things aren't going exactly your way?

Originally Posted by Edudbor

Are you mad....lol

Actually, EdudBor is RobDude spelled backwards. My name is Rob, and I'm male (last I checked).

I know its fun to play internet tough guy; but let's be serious here. First, you never have the right to 'wail the crap' out of someone. Legally, you have a right to *defend yourself* with an appropriate level of force. What that specifically means will be up to the judge and/or jury; but there is no law that says 'If a guy tries to hurt you, you can beat the crap out of him'. You can use enough force to defend yourself. Anymore and you are guilty of a crime.

Aside from the fact that, legally, you can't 'wail the crap' out of someone...I find it hard to believe you - or anyone - is capable of what you are claiming to be able to do. Have you even broken a car window? While riding a bicycle? While the car is moving?

We can turn this into an e-pissing contest all day long; and I'd rather not, so I'll just say this...the kind of guy who will try to scare a bicycle rider or force him off the road is also the kind of guy who is likely to have a weapon (knife/gun/etc...) in his vehicle. And while you are putzing around with your karate chop to break his window, he needs to turn his steering wheel only a matter of inches and his car will be on top of you.

Anyway, I'm interested to know where you live? I'm guessing it's a very urban area, where there are plenty of alternate routes available to you? I grew up in the Chicago land area, and a few months ago, I probably would have agreed with you. But now I live in Northern CO, and it's a very bicycle friendly area, Loveland, Fort Collins, and Windsor all have a great choice of roads and trails. The problem is, in between these towns - especially going from Fort Collins to Windsor; there is, quite literally, two roads that you can take. Two. There is an interstate (I-25) that runs North/South that you must cross to get from one town to the next. There are two roads (both are single lane highways, no shoulder, no bike paths). Heck, a lot of the roads out here aren't even paved. Gravel roads?!

Now, you can insult my driving all you want, but there are sections (fairly large sections) of road/bridge that are even narrower than the typical lane. These are often poorly maintained roads, with sand/dirt/gravel at the edges. The bicyclist can't even ride full to the right-hand side; and because these are high traffic roads, especially during rush hour (which is when I'm on them) it's damn difficult to safely pass a biker.

And that is why I don't like bicycle riders. They negatively affect me. They slow me down. They provide me with no benefit (as I've discussed before). The net effect here, is - No Pro's, Small Con's. Over all, I'd be happier if there were no bicycle riders. And before you get all upset and say that bicycles have equal rights to the road...well, let's be honest about that too. Bicycles *don't* have equal rights to the road.

I know, I know, this is a cycling forum and people are going to be upset. Whatever. Be reasonable and really think about this for a second. Can you ride your bicycle on an expressway/interstate? No. It's illegal. That alone, means you do not have the same rights as a motorvehcile. Why is it illegal to ride a bicycle on an interstate? Because it's DANGEROUS! But why is it dangerous? It's dangerous because bicycle riders are going to be doing between 10-30 mph and the cars will be doing up to 90mph. The greater the difference in speed between the two objects, the greater the risk.

Bicycles are a minor annoyance to me when they are on roads that do not accommodate them. Roads with no bike lane, no shoulder, and speed limits (or average traffic speeds) well in excess of what a bicycle can do. I, without passing or being passed, drive at 60 mph or so, for a stretch of 4-5 miles each morning. It's a single lane road, with no shoulder, not even a curb, and no bicycle lane. There are several bridges (each with a 'Caution: Narrow' sign). And, there is a lot of traffic, making passing very difficult.

Again, you can insult my driving all you want; but *I* feel unsafe when dealing with these bicycle riders. If I, god forbid, accidently hit a cyclist; I'm looking at a very large financial burden and, if the poor guy is seriously hurt (or worse, killed); I could see that causing some emotional-type issues. If I leave too much room on my right, and I clip an oncoming car; well, obviously, that's bad too. Even slowing down to keep pace with the bicycle rider until he clears a bridge quickly causes a large traffic backup.

Inside of the towns around here, all of the roads have a bit of extra space before the curb; and many have designated bike lanes. There are 1 or 2 roads that have sections of 40 mph (and those are mutli-lane roads, with bike lanes), the rest have even lower speed limits. On those roads, I'm simply indifferent towards cyclists. They have space to do their thing, I have space to do my thing.

So, say what you will about me personally; but personal attacks rarely do anything to change someone's opinion. But, the fact remains that, in some cases bicyclists are a minor annoyance and in no case are they a benefit to me, directly.

I'll continue to drive the same way I drive, and I'll continue to be slightly annoyed each time I run into a bicyclist on a road that makes it difficult for myself and other motor vehicles to navigate, and I'll continue to avoid roads on my bicycle where I know there is not space for myself to fit, nor space for cars to comfortably pass me. And you can continue to break windows and spray bear repellant in the eyes of people operating motor vehicles

Originally Posted by NORECUMYET

Have you ever heard of a center punch? It's a tool originally designed to make a small "dent" in a piece of metal. There are the "manual" type that require the use of a hammer, and there are the "automatic" type that only require a small amount of force. You push down on them and after about one inch of travel, a spring loaded arrangement "fires" an internal hammer onto the "punch" portion of the tool. Slightly altered versions of these tools are sold for THE SPECIFIC PURPOSE of breaking a tempered glass automobile window. They get a lot of sales in Florida where it's not unusual for folks to end up in the canals there. It's a safety device that makes it possible for even a weak old woman, like yourself, to break their window so that they can escape drowning. Now, I don't know that I want to address all of your points one by one but I will say the following.

Because I've used the terms legal and illegal does not mean that I in any way shape or form feel bound by these laws. I was making a point in a particular paragraph. That's all. IF, and I emphasize IF, someone tries to hit me with their car, the law at that instant is not going to protect me or do what I deem as the necessary things that should follow. Now folks like yourself want to tell someone like me what my rights are, and that I should call the police etc. I will do whatever I think is necessary in my mind (including a call to the police) to lessen the chances of the person whose attacked me to do the same thing to someone else. In other words, my goal is to leave such a bad taste in that person's mouth that they will think very hard before again doing something similar. Of course all of this is assuming that I haven't been paralyzed from being hit by the car.

Now since you seem to need specific explannations of everything I will give you one. I once was riding my mountain bike down a steep boulevard coming down from the mountains. The traffic was heavy and moving along at approx. 35 MPH. The road I was on has very deep storm drain inlets IN it's bike lane so riding IN the bike lane is simply too dangerous. I was out in the traffic moving at the same speed so in this case there was no reason for someone like you to be "annoyed". A red light was coming up and I eventually slowed to a stop a couple of feet from the rear end of the auto in front of me. Just as I stopped I felt a very, very small jerk in my bike. When I turned around (I didn't ride with a rearview mirror back then) I saw a brand new black Volvo station wagon's front bumper actually touching my rear tire. As you can expect I was in a state of shock, fear, and anger that someone would do something like this. When I looked up at the gentleman driving he rolled down the window and told me to "get the "F" off HIS road." I extricated myself from in between the two cars and walked my bike back to his driver's side window wherein I asked him what seemed to be the problem. He again yelled at me to get the @%#% off his road. I tried one more time to find out exactly what he was thinking and this time he started to get out his car. I could only guess at that point that he was going to assault me. Without time to think about it ( I assume my self defense instincts took over) I picked up my cheap mountain bike and slammed it into his driver's side door forcing it closed along with doing severe damage to the paint and body. I then pulled my pump off of it's mount and told him that if he tried anything that I would beat him to death with my pump. I will guess this guy didn't know how much a bicycle pump weighs because at that point he threw his now damaged car into gear and took off down the road. I never saw him again.

THIS is the kind of thing I'm referring to. Ever since that day I have always carried SOMETHING with me that can aid in my own self defense. On a bicycle you are very vulnerable so I see nothing wrong with evening up the odds as much as possible. Now, if I have something very similar happen to me again, and if I have the bear spray with me, and if the person gets out of the car which would lead me to believe that I'm going to be assaulted, then I WILL hose em down, no questions asked. Now if you think it impossible for scenarios such as this to take place then go out and start riding in traffic every day for the next year. When that year is up THEN tell me how you feel about this issue.

It's quite obvious from everything you've written so far that you have absolutely NO experience with riding a bike or motorcycle in traffic. Maybe you should consider refraining from writing about things in which you have no understanding. Just remember this. When you write to a forum like this and start out with telling someone that they're pathetic, they're not likely to act like your best friend. As far a being "an internet tough guy" I can only assume that you mean I'm making all of this up. Once again to repeat myself, get out there on the road during rush hour every day for even a few months and THEN tell me how full of crap I am.

I live in Southern California and whether or not there are alternative roads makes no difference. What you keep saying over and over and over makes it quite clear where you're coming from. You don't believe that you should have to be inconvenienced for the sake of a bicycle rider whom doesn't contribute anything to society as far as you can see. You know what? Nobody gives a damn if you like or not. Go hide in a cave somewhere. You live in a world with other people and like it or not you have to live with them. Even it means that your trip to work might be slowed down by what, 60 seconds. I mean really, what's the longest amount of time that you've ever been slowed down on one these bridges that these evil bicycles keep hogging? I'll bet that it's not more than one minute. That's sixty seconds buddy, and if sixty seconds means that much to you then you need another plan.

BY THE WAY, just for pissing contest reasons alone, I could VERY EASILY ride by your car while you and I are both cruising down the road at 35 MPH, cruise up next to your window, and with my right hand push with five pounds of force (All that is needed for a "Life Hammer") and in one fifth of a second turn your driver's side tempered glass window into ten thousand pieces. Here is the link where you can buy your own personal life hammer. It's not exactly the same thing as a center punch, but if you reread my previous text I never said it was. It is a spring loaded "hammer" made specifically for breaking side and rear windows. Now am I going to have to prove everything else I've written as well?
http://saveyourlife.us/ResQMe.html

One more thing for now. IF.......someone did pull a gun or weapon on me, then my 35 foot stream of bear repellent may very well save my life. Not carrying anything certainly isn't going to do me any good. Everyone thankfully is not like yourself. I will not run away when someone has taken my life in their hands. Let me guess, you're from France aren't you? You know, I'm a lot of thing negative and you would be correct to call me them. I AM NOT however a liar or a coward. I would rather be beat down than to run away, and being that I live and ride in Southern California I have no need to make up stories of road rage. Don't you watch the news. Some guy was just run over in the last few days, by a car, on his bicycle.

Originally Posted by Edudbor

You seem mad

Okay, okay, so you are riding with a special window breaking device and bear spray....Gotcha.

And you don't have any problem with breaking the law, but you expect others to obey it.....Gotcha.

And I make a post offering my opinion as a *driver*
(Quote from my first post --> "I'm not a cyclist (not yet anyway). I've clocked exactly *zero* minutes on my bicycle so far (bought it today). So, I feel I'm a good candidate to give the 'drivers' perspective; or at least my own views on the issue...."); and yet you tell me not to comment on things I don't know. I know what it's like to be a driver, and I'm giving my opinion on why drivers don't like dealing with bicycle riders. Not being a bicycle rider has nothing to do with that.

It seems like you fail to recognize a difference between someone like me (who acknowledges that bicyclists have a right to be in the road, but prefer that they aren't inconviencing me) and people like the guy in your story who want to hit your bicycle. You are responding as if my admitting my annoyance in some way harms you. As though, I'm leading the fight *against* bicylists. I'm not.

People don't like things that annoy them. I don't like long lines, I don't like the DMV, I don't like driving behind bicycle riders, I don't like people who drive below the speed limit, I don't like drivers who fail to use their turn signals, etc, etc. The amount of time it takes to resolve an annoyance isn't an issue. If something is generally annoying and offers no general advantage, someone will generally be against it.

I'm generally against cars driving 25 miles below the speed limit.
I'm generally against long lines at the super market.
I'm generally against commercials for perscription drugs.
I'm generally against Britney Spears.
I'm generally against Mexican food.
I'm generally against large people in tiny clothes.

I don't want to hurt anyone who does those things. I don't think that people shouldn't be able to do those things. But I don't like those things. I don't expect anyone doing those things to particularlly care that I don't like those things. But, the fact remains, I still, don't like them.

This thread is about 'Why Cycling will never be accepted by road users'. I'm telling you *why* I, as a road user, don't care for cyclists. Since that is the topic at hand; I'm honestly very curious...*why* do you think that guy you encountered who hit your back tire decided to hit your tire? He obviously wanted you off the road...but *why* do you think he wanted you off the road? Do you think he disliked you because of your gender? Your sex? Your physical appearance?

I'm guessing it was none of those things. It probably had something to do with the fact that you were on a bicycle. Why do you think he dislikes bicycles?

Maybe he was molested as a child by a door to door bicycle sales man? But that's highly unlikely.

What I'm saying, the opinion I'm offering, is that; he probably didn't like you because you are a minor inconvience/annoyance for him and other drivers. He handled that annoyance poorly, you and I agree on that. You had every right to be in the road, you and I agree on that. All I'm doing, is saying why I believe he, and other drivers, dislike bicycles.

You seem to be focusing on attacking me personally; so why not take a break from that, and let's talk about why you think he did what he did. And then, whatever you say, I'll attack you personally, as though you advocate hitting bicycle riders for whatever reason you offer

It'll be a fun game.