the term "islamo-fascism", valid?

Weisse Luft

Pure hogwash. Look at the nationalism between the Shiia and Sunni sects. Iran and Iraq fought a war for 8 years over it, sending children as minesweepers and gassing each other.

Now look at Sudan where Janjaweed militia target non-Arabs and non-Muslims.

darkboong

Codswallop. That is revisionist twaddle.

1) Saddam Hussein is fiercely secular, his decisions appear to have been largely motivated by control of oil.
2) Saddam started the war in the first place, and to a some degree he acted as a proxy for the US in the Iran-Iraq war. Who can forget Rummy's smiling face and firm handshake with the man ?

Furthermore Saddam was not only given VX gas, but he was also given operational support including satellite intelligence by the US. The UK has grubby hands in that conflict too. For that matter the US gave Stingers
and the like to Iran as well, how quickly nationalist xenophobes forget.



The child minesweepers thing is somewhat doubtful, although it's not without precedent. There are accounts of US marines doing just that in Vietnam, and more recently Israel's Supreme court specifically identified cases where the IDF used children as human shields for the same purpose. Certainly it was the done thing back in WWI here in Europe. The US, UK, France and Germany all have a pretty grizzly record there.



So what ? The IDF (the military of the world's only Jewish State) target Palestinian children on picnics, I can't believe that is compatible with Judaism. Have you ever wondered why Orthodox Jews are exempted from Military service with the IDF ? Another newsflash for you : Christians kill, commit adultery and thieve from each other, despite the 10 Commandments.

Nothing you've said here makes a case for Nationalist motives being part of or even being compatible with Islam. The conflicts we are facing arise from people being people, I doubt that there is a single faith in the world that hasn't had one of it's faithful go out and fight with someone.

What I see going on is people killing each other for food, water, oil, diamonds, gold, power and money. In all probability they would still be fighting if they were Moonies or Scientologists.

Talking of which, why did the Christians who killed those folks in Haditha do it ? Was it because they were Christian ?

How about the guys who were turning back 16 year old Iraqi kids at the checkpoints around Falluja before they rolled in and murdered every last one of them ?

Wasn't it a Marine commander who claimed that killing Iraqis was "a hoot", and went on to justify it with a claim that the victims were all wife-beaters ? I didn't hear any reports of each of the victim's domestic behaviour being examined by a qualified and impartial judge, and that fucker certainly doesn't count as qualified and impartial. How can he *know* he's killing a wife-beater when he pulls the trigger ? Answer : He doesn't, he just makes excuses for his sociopathic behaviour - he has to in order to live with himself. That is the human being in action, Muslims are human beings too and I have no doubt that the buggers who go out and fly aeroplanes into skyscrapers made the same kind of bullshit justification in their heads too.

Both yourself and Wolfix have repeatedly stated and implied that you view Muslims as genocidal maniacs by default. Both of you have vigorously insisted that Muslims should be treated differently to other people, and both of you have insisted that you can't communicate or coexist with Muslims, despite first hand evidence to the contrary.

You guys are talking like paranoid sociopaths. Wiesse Luft ? Nah, more
like Travis Bickle, you guys are as bad as the monsters you imagine.

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wolfix

You need to point out where I called Muslims "genocidal maniacs." And you also need to point out where I declared .........."have insisted that you can't communicate or coexist with Muslims. "

That has never been stated by me. But I do believe that Muslims need to be looked at closer when entering this country. And yes, there have been Muslims convicted in this country of terrorism. It wasn't Catholic altar boys flying those planes on 9/11.
[I know they were not convicted]
And we only have to look to Canada a few weeks ago to see what is going on.
And common sense tells me that this is not all Muslims, nor even a large porportion of them.

And yes, it is hard to tella "Jihad" muslim from a man who wants to enter this country for a legitimate reason.

Because if I felt that all Muslims or their religion preached hatred , I would not have a small business relationship with 2 Muslims.
I had a relationship with a women several years ago that had 2 children that were Muslim. [I dumped her, but it wasn't for that reason. She had "jihad" for me when I wouldn't commit to her. Now, I will go on record and say she wa a "genocidal maniac." }

And if the Muslims in this country have a problem with profiling, they need to look at their brothers that have brought the attention to them. And when Americans usually refer to " genocidal maniacs" they are not refering to the Muslims that work and live in their neighborhoods, but the Muslims that are on TV decaring it's hate for America and the desire to kill Americans. Even as I write this the TV is reporting on this situation right now as a Muslim leader is declaring just this.

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Wurm

Backpedaling again when confronted with a few simple facts, eh wolfux?

How do you live with your cognitive dissonance/blood mania/delusions? Here, let me guess: it's all OK as long as it helps you to make/keep more money.

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Wurm

Here are some inconvenient details on the recently "discovered" WMD's in Iraq:

Olbermann: Santorum WMD's false Story



Good Evening from New York.

We have found Weapons of Mass Destruction in Iraq.

15-year old Weapons of Mass Destruction that could give you the equivalent of a serious rug burn.

Our fifth story on the Countdown: Independent experts and the level-headed, staggering in amazement today, that deteriorated mustard gas canisters -- at least fifteen years old and as much as **eighteen** years old -- could be **palmed off** by desperate politicians as some kind of rationale for the deaths of 2500 American servicemen in Iraq.

Republican Senator, Rick Santorum, down 18 percent in the polls in his own re-election bid... **joined** by the chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, Representative Pete Hoekstra of Michigan... in pimping part of a two-month old military intelligence report describing the existence of old munitions shells with chemical weapons that are degraded, unusable, and non-threatening. "We have found weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, **chemical** weapons," Santorum told a news conference.Gullible news organizations treated the story with slightly less fervor than they might, the Second Coming...

"Since 2003," Santorum said, reading from the report, "coalition forces have recovered approximately 500 weapons munitions which contain degraded mustard or sarin nerve agent... pre-Gulf War chemical munitions are assessed to still exist. ... While agents degrade over time, chemical warfare agents remain hazardous and potentially lethal."

Santorum adding, "This is an incredibly -- in my mind -- significant finding."

Congressman Hoekstra was not quite as restrained. "This says weapons have been discovered, more weapons exist and they state that Iraq was not a WMD-free zone," he foamed...

That there are continuing threats from the materials that are or may still be in Iraq."

But a Pentagon official contradicted the Republican leaders, telling NBC News: "This does not reflect a capacity that was built up after 1991."

The weapons are the same kind of ordnance the US military has been gathering up in Iraq for the past several years...

And these munitions --quote -- "are not the WMDs this country and the rest of the world believed Iraq had, and not the WMDs for which this country went to war."

A distinction that clearly eluded the official's Pentagon boss.

Pentagon briefing// Rumsfeld: ...we've found hundreds of them... they are dangerous... They are weapons of mass destruction. They are harmful to human beings.)

...we've found hundreds of them... they are dangerous... They are weapons of mass destruction. They are harmful to human beings.

So was any exposure to the **sun** endured by whoever went searching for them. Moreover, the Washington Post reports that the munitions shells which Santorum and Hoekstra have clutched to their bosoms... were found buried near the Iranian border -- forgotten by Iraqi troops in their war with Iran which ended in 1988.

And the former chief U-N Weapons Inspector and President Bush's Iraq Survey Group Chief -- David Kay -- telling Countdown that Senator Santorum's comments are -- quote -- wrong as to the facts and exaggerated beyond all reason as to the interpretation of the 'facts'." He continued, "There is no surprise that very small numbers of chemical canisters from the Iran-Iraq War have been found. "The ISG found them and in my testimony in 2004 I said that I expected that we would continue to find them for a very long time. "These are in very small numbers and are scattered. The nerve agents have long since degraded to the point that they no long pose any substantial threat.

"In most cases the mustard agent has substantially degraded, but will burn you if skin comes in contact with it."

Joining me now, the Senior Vice President for National Security at the Center for American Progress in Washington, Joseph Cirincione...

He's co-author of "Deadly Arsenals: Tracking Weapons of Mass Destruction". Thank you for your time, sir.

To make the statement, "We have found weapons of mass destruction in Iraq" -- does the person making it **have** to be either exaggerating to the point of dishonesty, or simply not capable of understanding what Weapons of Mass Destruction really are?


www.crooksandliars.com/stories/2006/06/23/olbermannSantorumWmdsFalseStory.html


So, when will we see wolfux and the other fascist supporters on this site admit that they're nothing but slavish robo-pawns for their thuggish, filthy masters?

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darkboong

I claimed that you "implied".



Name em.



It wasn't a Muslim who who detonated the van full of blammo in Oklahoma either. What's your point ?




Mainly because there was no trial and the evidence collected was circumstantial, however convincing or otherwise you may feel it to be.



The authorities stated that they didn't pose any threat whatsoever... We need to wait and see the evidence really, getting taken into custody and being accused of doing stuff by the folks arresting them doesn't prove anything. See Forest Gate here in the UK for an example of that, or for that matter how about the 5000 plus guys suspected of being Muslim who were arrested under the Patriot act... How many have been charged or faced trial ? Nil.

So yeah, we all know what's going on here. Folks who appear to be Muslim are being hauled off the streets and imprisoned without charge, and you endorse it.



So why do you ignore the non-muslim terrorists, and assume Muslims to be terrorists by default then ?



Same goes for an Irishman, right ?

Same goes for an Ex-Army guy in Oklahoma, right ?

Terrorists are difficult to catch before the act at the best of times without dissipating your resources and revealing your techniques with crude racial profiling techniques.



ROTFL.



Just like the Blacks in South Africa, right ?

Or the Orangemen in Ireland ?

Or the Minutemen in the USA.

... and so on.



Maybe you should be taking a look at the Jewish Defense League and the Christian Fundamentalists that attract millions of viewers in the US that endorse and incite violence against Muslims. I do not see any discernable difference asdie from the fact that they are endorsed and indeed openly supported by US citizens.

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darkboong

For the record, I HAVE A PROBLEM WITH RACIAL PROFILING, as do a number of very experience and well respected Police officers. Racial profiling is fundamentally incompatible with Justice.



When they fail to make a distinction in what they say and they are endorsing fundamentally racist policies you can't honestly intepret that any other way. They are racists endorsing and promoting racism.



Bush on Boykin declared war on Islam themselves. Go figure what the Muslims think about that, seeing as the US, UK and Israel are in fact actually killing Muslims by the score every day all around the world, and as you should well know the Kill-Ratio is very much against the Muslims of all shapes, nations, colours and beliefs.

I can't see anything constructive or useful coming out of making it a war of faiths, the goal should be to nail terrorists, regardless of what their creed is. How many more McVeighs or McGuinnesses' do you need understand that ?

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Carrera

"I notice the liberals on the left coast are not speaking out against Bush and Rice talking strong with the N.Koreans. Especially since the missle will reach them and more then likely they would be the target. Things change when you are in the sights."

I don't myself see North Korea as a threat. The U.S. line may have something to do with concerns in Japan over North Korea. North Korea is a little bit crazy but I don't think they're unstable. I believe diplomacy is the way to get North Korea on board.

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Carrera

Do you believe there is no racial difference between human beings or racial characteristics that make people different?
Do you not believe black people are essentially better runners than white people due to genetic traits. Or that Russian men are genetically stronger than, say, Japanese?
Amazingly, this is what people believe in this country today - that there is no such thing as race and that all people are the same.
In my house we have a border collie and I can tell you, he's smarter than most other dogs. It's a fact collies are probably the most intelligent of dogs. However, we have reached a stage where it's apparently racist to state border collies are smarter than, say, poodles or terriers. Or that greyhounds are faster runners than German shepherds.
I did see all the programs on TV and documentaries that claimed race doesn't exist but it denies genuine research and it somehow reminds me of the Middle Ages when people believed the world was flat.
I think it's time we did accept human beings are different on account of ethnic origen but also culture. Therefore, surely if pizza is stolen from a fridge in a house shared by Japanese and Italians, surely you're going to suspect an Italian above a Japanese?

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Carrera

"I can't see anything constructive or useful coming out of making it a war of faiths, the goal should be to nail terrorists, regardless of what their creed is. How many more McVeighs or McGuinnesses' do you need understand that ?"

What about the Romans and Christians? The majority of classical historians now agree the rise of Christianity destabilised the Roman World and played a huge part in its fall. For a start, Christians refused to serve in the Roman army and claimed you couldn't be a true Christian and be involved in state affairs - you had to abstain.
This led to difficulties recruiting troops to fill the legions which, in turn, led to more successful invasions by Germanic tribes. By 400 A.D. there were hardly any Roman troops in the army - most were foreign conscripts. The problem was huge at the time.
In restrospect, had the Romans known the future that lay in store (the suppression of paganism, book-burning, banning of science e.t.c.) they would possibly have found ways to counter the radical theocratic clergy which went on to create a theocratic Roman state.
Since Christianity was too openly tolerated later on, this allowed more radical Christianity to prosper and become grounded within society. It's the same with all religions which is why China is possibly so intolerant of organized religion as a whole.
Everywhere religion is allowed to take root, you find division and strife.

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NYYTEX22

if there is such a thing as islamo-facism. then the nazis were raging homosexuals

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darkboong

Nope.



Tell that to a Sumo.



Bollocks.

Genetic makeup is orthogonal to the religious beliefs and whether a particular person is a terrorist. There have been terrorists of all skin colours and religious beliefs, that was true before DNA was even discovered and it remains true to this very day. That is why racial profiling is incompatable with justice as far as determining if an individual is a terrorist or not.



Right, so when you discover some dog piss on a lamp-post do you automatically assume that a Border Collie did it ... ?



If you've got evidence to support those assertions they will stand, accusations of racism or not. Again, I have yet to see any objective evidence presented by you or your pals that race and religion are reliable indicators of terrorist activity.



You deny genetic research when it suits you too Crappy. You refuse to accept that the indigenous Jews in Israel are in anyway connected with the indigenous Gentiles in Israel for example, despite the peer reviewed studies that say the contrary.



I do not consider sanctioning someone on a mere suspicion to be compatable Justice, evidence is required. If you've got evidence present it, if you haven't shut the fuck up.

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Carrera

The idea that terrorism is related to race is a ridiculous argument - one I never put forward.
What I have stated is that the whole idea there is no such thing as race is totally unscientific and amounts to a load of twaddle. I was talking about physical attributes and mental attributes being distinguished by race. The sumo wrestler argument you put forward is demonstrably wrong as sumo wrestlers aren't strong and, besides that, their average life expectancy is 42.
Next time you watch the Olympics try and find a top Japanese weight-lifting contender as it's pretty hard to do. It's a known fact the Slavic peoples are naturally stronger just as black runners are better than white runners - generally speaking. This is basic genetics. Races are not the same but different. Goldfish and and silver dollars are both freshwater fish but genetically distinct the same as people are.
Why does the U.S. always do so well in the Olympics? Simple answer. They put forward athletes from various ethnic backgrounds, sprinters from Africa, gymnasts from Russia e.t.c.
"That is why racial profiling is incompatable with justice as far as determining if an individual is a terrorist or not."
Naturally. Whoever argued we should try and pick out terrorists by determining their race? That's not what we mean by racial profiling. What people are saying is something like if a bottle of vodka is stolen in a house shared by Russians and American Mormons, you can bet your bottom dollar the Russians are the most likely suspects for having stolen the vodka.
Or would you start your investigations by searching the American Mormons?
Therefore, if there's a terrorist attack and police find a copy of the Koran nearby, it's not rocket science to deduce that maybe your suspects hail from the Middle East.
"You deny genetic research when it suits you too Crappy. You refuse to accept that the indigenous Jews in Israel are in anyway connected with the indigenous Gentiles in Israel for example, despite the peer reviewed studies that say the contrary."
I studied genetics at university some years ago. However, I don't plan to reopen this debate over Israel on account of people getting upset. Nuff said.
"Again, I have yet to see any objective evidence presented by you or your pals that race and religion are reliable indicators of terrorist activity."
You're straying from the point a bit as that wasn't my argument. The source of terrorism isn't racial but it is religious - motivated by religion. People are saying that suicide bombings are typical of Middle Eastern tactics and that Italians, Germans or your average American tourist doesn't blow himself up in a public area.

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darkboong

In which case why post your ideas about Genetics in reply to a post that discusses racial profiling ?

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