Chain, BBs, Rings, cassettes

03-07.-2006, 12:14 PM	#1
OldNickToo Registered User Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Gidgegannup, Western Australia Posts: 140	Chain, BBs, Rings, cassettes Where do I start? I have a Giant Yukon. First bike for many years. Good frame, from all accounts, and as I use up thr other bits I will replace them. I hope to upgrade bits and pieces. Drive: To me, the most important part. The gears (Alivio front, Deore rear) are..OK....but I hear tell there are better, even in the Shimano range! <G> (1) Shimano vs Sram If I go to Sram, where do I get chainrings/cranksets? They seem rare. Is Sram really that much better? I have been reading, and generally see "Shimano stronger, Sram nicer to change" - Sram would presumabnly require different shifter and possibly derailers as well $$. So it would have to be good. Where do I need to go in the Shimano range to get _significantly_ better changes than Deore (yeah yeah I know, anywhere! <G>) ? I hear talk of smooth full power changes in some levels. (2) Shimano HG vs IG. I had the impression that IG was supposed to be the step up from HG, but HG is the most common by far, while IG seems to be dying out. Is this and 8-9 speed thing? Cogs too thick with IG? Which _is_ the better system? (3) I really am happy with 8-speed I don't need more Chains etc are reportedly stronger Keep my shifters, and possibly derailers. But it seems tough to get decent (Deore LX and above) cranksets without BBs atached, and then they do not say what model BB you are getting (and what about replacement if somethong breaks?). It also seems tough to get HG 8-speed stuff. I have found (AEBIKE and AirBomb fro instance) Inner ring, middle ring, but no outer ring for HG 8-speed. Shimano quite strongly recommended that I not use HG chain on HG chainrings. Cassettes seem more forgiving. As you can see I am floundering so sorry for the ramble. I would appreciate help.

03-07.-2006, 02:39 PM	#2
gclark8 Registered User Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Perth (Basso), West Australia Posts: 3,512	Re: Chain, BBs, Rings, cassettes Nic, Sounds like you have too much money. Want an Upland Giant Ladies for the wife? See below, I have option it up with agricultural tyres if you like it.. __________________ Cheers, George.

03-07.-2006, 03:13 PM	#3
OldNickToo Registered User Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Gidgegannup, Western Australia Posts: 140	Re: Chain, BBs, Rings, cassettes Not really. She also has a Yukon. It's not a matter of too much money. I think I said I would let stuff wear out (????). I have asked a few people and may have lost track. But when I do option, I don't want to end up in a $$ mess. ANyway, your road bike's retailed at the price of two Yukons!

04-07.-2006, 11:04 PM	#4
OldNickToo Registered User Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Gidgegannup, Western Australia Posts: 140	Re: Chain, BBs, Rings, cassettes Sorry about all that. I guess there may have been others out there who were overwhelmed by the marketing hype and were willing to share ideas. BTW. I asked Sheldon Brown. He has a lot say about what he wants to say, but backs away real fast if you ask. eg He has a lot to say about HG vs IG Shimano stuff, but when I asked, he said he uses Sram...therefore "no comment". That's fine. That's his choice. But it annoys me that it does not stop him posting a lot of _stuff_ about Shimano....until pressed.

05-07.-2006, 12:00 AM

davebee

Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2004

Location: Manchester and South London

Posts: 440

Re: Chain, BBs, Rings, cassettes

Quote:

Originally Posted by OldNickToo

Sorry about all that. I guess there may have been others out there who were overwhelmed by the marketing hype and were willing to share ideas.

BTW. I asked Sheldon Brown. He has a lot say about what he wants to say, but backs away real fast if you ask.

eg

He has a lot to say about HG vs IG Shimano stuff, but when I asked, he said he uses Sram...therefore "no comment". That's fine. That's his choice.

But it annoys me that it does not stop him posting a lot of _stuff_ about Shimano....until pressed.

ooh hooo, only an Aussie would take on the man that is Sheldon Brown!! Go Aussie!!

FWIW I would stick with Shimano for the most part in your case. IG and HG are (as far as I am aware) 8 and 9 speed versions of pretty much the same thing. Sheldon probably has some deep depth analysis of the two but I have used both with few problems.

here is my recommendation:
Keep your mechs shimano as your mechs have to be compaible with your shifters which are almost certainly shimano at the moment. Change one mech, change the shifter. Shifters for the most part come in pairs so you would therefore have to change the other mech to have the shifters the same. Using one SRAM mech and one shimano mech would confuse the hell out of me so I just would not go there! So stick with shimano for your shifters and mechs.

Chainwise you can use pretty much any 8speed chain out there. Sram are the best I have found as they are less prone to breakage, the rivets can be reused so long as you don;t drive it out completely, and they use the powerlink system which makes it a piece of piss to get the chain on and off. Very useful if you offroad and need to clean it etc.

Chainset wise, I would ignore shimano as their chainrings are made out of soft chocolate after a warm day in the sunshine. Sram chainsets are sold under the "Truvativ" label and some of these are pretty decent if a tad on the heavy side. Personally I prefer Raceface or (to a lesser extent) FSA. Chainring wise, you can either replace the chainrings that come on the cranks with 8 speed ones but in all honesty the difference is pretty negligible in my experience (you might notice a "SLIGHT" shifting performance issue but unless you have top end spec components you probably won't notice).

Bottom bracket wise you have the choice between ISIS (non-shimano), Octalink (shimano) and the new hollowtech II (shimano), giga-pipe (truvativ) or X-type (Racerace) external BB type. You need to make this decision before you buy cranks. personally I have just switched to Raceface X-Type in the hope that the bottom brackets will last a bit longer, but this is offset but an initial higher outlay cost for the crank and I know you guys pay plenty for components in Oz. All the hollowtech II, giga-pipe and x-type BBs are compatible with one another and the raceface ones are supposed to be good. If you go ISIS, my advice is to buy a cheapish branded one and expect it to wear out. If you don't already know, learn to fit them yourself as this will save a fortune long term.

In terms of how far to go in the range, I would suggest XT if you are prepared to spend. In my opinion it is significantly betetr than LX for not a huge extra markup. The step from XT to XTR is not really worth it (except for vee brakes) and the price jump is huge.

The other (much more expensive) alternative, is to rip off existing cranks, mechs, cassette (your hubs will be the right width) and shifters, and replace with an XT 9speed gruppo (but i would say steer away from shimano cranks because of the rings) but this would not be cheap.

I hope this has helped and that I have not been smarmy. I don't work in the industry and don't have any axe to grind against any company.

Dave

05-07.-2006, 12:57 PM

OldNickToo

Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2006

Location: Gidgegannup, Western Australia

Posts: 140

Re: Chain, BBs, Rings, cassettes

I have attempted to break up and deal with your reply. I hope my quoting system works....however. Excellent reply, which is why I wanted to do it justice.

However, there are still more questions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by davebee

ooh hooo, only an Aussie would take on the man that is Sheldon Brown!! Go Aussie!!

I will assume he's a busy man and leave it at that <G>....there really is a lot of useful stuff on his sites.

Quote:

Originally Posted by davebee

FWIW I would stick with Shimano for the most part in your case. IG and HG are (as far as I am aware) 8 and 9 speed versions of pretty much the same thing. Sheldon probably has some deep depth analysis of the two but I have used both with few problems.
here is my recommendation:
Keep your mechs shimano as your mechs have to be compaible with your shifters which are almost certainly shimano at the moment. Change one mech, change the shifter. Shifters for the most part come in pairs so you would therefore have to change the other mech to have the shifters the same. Using one SRAM mech and one shimano mech would confuse the hell out of me so I just would not go there! So stick with shimano for your shifters and mechs.

Ok. _This_ is good stuff! I was wondering if Shimano mechs (if I may borrow that useful term <G>) could be used with Sram etc cassettes/chainring setups. I agree about having both halves the same make. Makes sense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by davebee

Chainwise you can use pretty much any 8speed chain out there. Sram are the best I have found as they are less prone to breakage, the rivets can be reused so long as you don;t drive it out completely, and they use the powerlink system which makes it a piece of piss to get the chain on and off. Very useful if you offroad and need to clean it etc.

Chainset wise, I would ignore shimano as their chainrings are made out of soft chocolate after a warm day in the sunshine. Sram chainsets are sold under the "Truvativ" label and some of these are pretty decent if a tad on the heavy side. Personally I prefer Raceface or (to a lesser extent) FSA.

Ahah! Truvativ. That explains why I was not seeing much Sram stuff in chainrings. I must say I was looking at Sram mainly because you can take the chain off for cleaning etc. Shimano's idea is daft. I don't mind heavy. The chainrings I have now are considered "low end" mainly because they are all steel, but that suits me fine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by davebee

Chainring wise, you can either replace the chainrings that come on the cranks with 8 speed ones but in all honesty the difference is pretty negligible in my experience (you might notice a "SLIGHT" shifting performance issue but unless you have top end spec components you probably won't notice).

Sorry. I am not quite sure what yuou mean here. AFAIK I have an 8-speed setup. Do you mean replace them with a better set, but I will not really see a dofference until I hit top end? I have seena couple of comments that using XT-level stuff did make a difference. However, given your chocolate and hot days comments, I am concerned about that. MTBR had some reviews of XT chainrings and they were frequently bagged for being soft and wearing fast or bending.

Quote:

Originally Posted by davebee

Bottom bracket wise you have the choice between ISIS (non-shimano), Octalink (shimano) and the new hollowtech II (shimano), giga-pipe (truvativ) or X-type (Racerace) external BB type. You need to make this decision before you buy cranks. personally I have just switched to Raceface X-Type in the hope that the bottom brackets will last a bit longer, but this is offset but an initial higher outlay cost for the crank and I know you guys pay plenty for components in Oz. All the hollowtech II, giga-pipe and x-type BBs are compatible with one another and the raceface ones are supposed to be good. If you go ISIS, my advice is to buy a cheapish branded one and expect it to wear out. If you don't already know, learn to fit them yourself as this will save a fortune long term.

For an old fart, I am pretty tough on bottom brackets and pedals etc. I have not destroyed one yet, but I have only been riding for a while. I'm not a jumper or dropper to talk of, but where we ride there are many (many many) rocks, and I often land a pedal or chainring on them. Often there is one other alternative...walk <G>. This is a heck of a jar, even if I am "riding light" and up off the saddle. So tough is good. I will probably avoid ISIS. OOI, Why do you suggest buying cheap ISIS and expecting failure? I will certainly be getting tools together and learning how to fix as much of the bike as I can. To me that's part of it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by davebee

In terms of how far to go in the range, I would suggest XT if you are prepared to spend. In my opinion it is significantly betetr than LX for not a huge extra markup. The step from XT to XTR is not really worth it (except for vee brakes) and the price jump is huge.

The other (much more expensive) alternative, is to rip off existing cranks, mechs, cassette (your hubs will be the right width) and shifters, and replace with an XT 9speed gruppo (but i would say steer away from shimano cranks because of the rings) but this would not be cheap.

I am certainly prepared to spend to get quality. Don't get me wrong! I'm not about to throw it about (I bought a Yukon <G>) but I can see the sense of getting good gear if it means better biking. Everyone says the Yukon frame _deserves_ better! <G>

However, as you say, going the whole hog is $$.

I am assuming you should not use Sram chain on Shimano cogs etc? That is something I am still not sure about. I gather the chainrings are more touchy than the cassettes??? (cringes) Or can I use Sram/Truvativ (or say, Raceface) chainrings and somebody else'e chain etc.? Sorry. That may open a can of worms. Best to stay with one maker?

I would prefer to stay 8-speed until the industry forces me to do otherwise by providing no choice!

Sram seem to offer more choices still in the 8-speed range, and plenty of people like yourself are saying go Sram (or more to the point, avoid Shimano...sad).

So is there an "XT equivalent" in Sram; that level that is not the $$top, but is better?

Quote:

Originally Posted by davebee

I hope this has helped and that I have not been smarmy. I don't work in the industry and don't have any axe to grind against any company.

Dave

Heck no! _I_ hope I am not coming back and abusing your input by simply asking more!

05-07.-2006, 01:00 PM	#7
OldNickToo Registered User Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Gidgegannup, Western Australia Posts: 140	Re: Chain, BBs, Rings, cassettes Hey! My quote breaks worked!

05-07.-2006, 01:14 PM	#8
gclark8 Registered User Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Perth (Basso), West Australia Posts: 3,512	Re: Chain, BBs, Rings, cassettes Nic, call Shimano in Sydney and ask them to post you a 2005 Bicycle Components Trade Sales and Support Manual. It will make life really easy in seeing what is compatible with what. __________________ Cheers, George.

05-07.-2006, 01:19 PM	#9
OldNickToo Registered User Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Gidgegannup, Western Australia Posts: 140	Re: Chain, BBs, Rings, cassettes Now that sounds like a good idea! Thanks.

05-07.-2006, 06:42 PM	#10
gclark8 Registered User Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Perth (Basso), West Australia Posts: 3,512	Re: Chain, BBs, Rings, cassettes Have you seen the For Sale Topics here? http://perthmtb.com//modules.php?name=Forums __________________ Cheers, George.

05-07.-2006, 08:19 PM

#11

davebee

Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2004

Location: Manchester and South London

Posts: 440

Re: Chain, BBs, Rings, cassettes

Hi again Nick. I have taken my orignal comments out and quoted yours as you did mine. keeps it reasonably clean that way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OldNickToo

I will assume he's a busy man and leave it at that <G>....there really is a lot of useful stuff on his sites.

sheldons site is very good.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OldNickToo

I was wondering if Shimano mechs (if I may borrow that useful term <G>) could be used with Sram etc cassettes/chainring setups. I agree about having both halves the same make.

as long as the mechs and shifters are the same make, you can mix and match. This is due to the cable pull ratios that shimano and sram use being different. Thereofre the shifter should be the same make as the mech. The rest you can mix and match.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OldNickToo

get steel or titanium chainrings. ti is not lighter but it is stronger. (cycledynamics make them)

Quote:

Originally Posted by OldNickToo

The difference between 8 and 9 speed is NOT one of quality it is to do with the WIDTH of components. 9 speed uses narrower cassette cogs, basically so they can fit so many on the hub and not affect the wheel strength too much. The chains are also narrower and therefore it makes sense to reduce the chainring width. Since 9spd is the indutsry standard, a chainset will come with 9spd chainrings which are slightly narrower. Your wider 8spd chain will fit but there will be some slack at the sides but you will not notice this unless you spec really highly. (Due to manufacturing tolerences within the ranges other thignas will be more noticeable) I am using an 8spd chain on 9spd chainset. Shimano cranks are good. Shimano chainrings are not. Raceface cranks are good, raceface chainrings are good. truvativ cranks are good but heavy, can;t comment on chainrings as not used.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OldNickToo

if you buy cheap, it is cheap to replace. Better to replace a £20 component 3 times a year than a £60 one twice a year. Go with the X-type and I don't think yuo will be dissappointed. BBs are the equivalent in price to a mid range ISIS but there is less choice at the moment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OldNickToo

good gear makes for a more enjoyable ride, thats for sure.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OldNickToo

However, as you say, going the whole hog is $$.

it is!!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by OldNickToo

I am assuming you should not use Sram chain on Shimano cogs etc? That is something I am still not sure about. I gather the chainrings are more touchy than the cassettes??? (cringes) Or can I use Sram/Truvativ (or say, Raceface) chainrings and somebody else'e chain etc.? Sorry. That may open a can of worms. Best to stay with one maker?

they say you shouldn't, but i use an Sram chain and shimano mechs. never noticed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OldNickToo

I would prefer to stay 8-speed until the industry forces me to do otherwise by providing no choice!

do that then!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by OldNickToo

Sram seem to offer more choices still in the 8-speed range, and plenty of people like yourself are saying go Sram (or more to the point, avoid Shimano...sad).

make the decision on the absis of which shifter you prefer as the emch is just the shifters slave. personally i prefer the shiamno shifters so i also use shimano mechs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OldNickToo

So is there an "XT equivalent" in Sram; that level that is not the $$top, but is better?

X-9 I think but I might be wrong.

FWIW I use XT shifters, Xt mechs, sram chain, Sram cassette and raceface chainrings. Hope this helps.

david

07-07.-2006, 04:15 AM	#12
peter nap Registered User Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 18	Re: Chain, BBs, Rings, cassettes Nic, call Shimano in Sydney and ask them to post you a 2005 Bicycle Components Trade Sales and Support Manual Just thought I'd let you know that I called Shimano North America today and asked for the manual. They said only dealers could get them. There are "Trade Secrets" in it....duh, I might learn to change my own wheels or something.

07-07.-2006, 05:34 AM	#13
gclark8 Registered User Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Perth (Basso), West Australia Posts: 3,512	Re: Chain, BBs, Rings, cassettes I guess your name is not Nic and you called someone other than Sydney. Try your local bike shop for an old copy of last years (2005) manual. __________________ Cheers, George.

07-07.-2006, 06:52 AM	#14
peter nap Registered User Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 18	Re: Chain, BBs, Rings, cassettes Thanks George!

20-07.-2006, 03:46 PM

#15

OldNickToo

Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2006

Location: Gidgegannup, Western Australia

Posts: 140

Re: Chain, BBs, Rings, cassettes

Quote:

Originally Posted by davebee

Hi again Nick. I have taken my orignal comments out and quoted yours as you did mine. keeps it reasonably clean that way.

Firstly. Sorry for not replying. I had notify by email etc set up, but dod not see this reply or any subsequent. Sorry.
Bad Web.... Bad bad Web!
.then I was in the middle of this, and the power went out. SO now I am working in Notepad and saving often.
[QUOTE=davebee]Hi again Nick. I have taken my orignal comments out and quoted yours as you did mine. keeps it reasonably clean that way.

Just wish it was not so messy to do. I am used to email or ng's
In the end I went back to Notebook, and did it that way. Better than the site's editor. Just hope the shorthand translates.....however....

Quote:

Originally Posted by davebee

sheldons site is very good.

Yes. I agree. But his email reply was a bit dismissive. I have to allow for the fact that, having put himself out there so much, he is going to have his time cut out to have a life
and actually help hapless souls like me! <G>
I think what got me was to be told to stop overthinking. This from a guy who probably has more unused (or strangely-used) bike parts around than I have skin cells! (could
not think of anything else I have much _of_ really) <G>
It's also very hard not to "overthink" when I am presented with 10 manufacturers from one vendor, each having about 50 items when I ask for just "chainring"!
I do have to admit to being an overthinker though...
....so I am appreciating your input. One day I will hopefully pass it along. Being an avid reader of these sorts of forums, I hope someone else is already reading your replies
to their benefit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by davebee

as long as the mechs and shifters are the same make, you can mix and match. This is due to the cable pull ratios that shimano and sram use being different. Thereofre the
shifter should be the same make as the mech. The rest you can mix and match.

Ok. Good answer. I can now leave that behind. Thank you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by davebee

get steel or titanium chainrings. ti is not lighter but it is stronger. (cycledynamics make them)

I was starting to look at Ti. The only trouble was, as my wife cynically (and as usual rightly) commented "But then you will have something that lasts forever, only it's not
what you want." Damn the woman! <G>
This _was_ cogent. There was a review of TA (??) Ti rings. The comment was that they would be the last you would ever buy, were about as light as Al, but the shifting was
not as nice as Shimano, because thery were not ramped, pinned etc.. I will look further and chase up cycledynamics.
Steel _would_ do. I am seriously against all this Al stuff. I cannot believe the great majority of riders care a stuff about 600 gm here or there.
- Hehe! Most of them are riding to _lose_ 10 times that!.....I am....at least <G>
But getting 8-speed compatible steel stuff (or even 8-speed al chainrings) seems difficult. Somewhere in here you say that 9-speed is the industry standard. Al seems to be
getting there....dammit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by davebee

The difference between 8 and 9 speed is NOT one of quality it is to do with the WIDTH of components. 9 speed uses narrower cassette cogs, basically so they can fit so
many on the hub and not affect the wheel strength too much. The chains are also narrower and therefore it makes sense to reduce the chainring width. Since 9spd is the
indutsry standard, a chainset will come with 9spd chainrings which are slightly narrower. Your wider 8spd chain will fit but there will be some slack at the sides but you will
not notice this unless you spec really highly. (Due to manufacturing tolerences within the ranges other thignas will be more noticeable) I am using an 8spd chain on 9spd
chainset. Shimano cranks are good. Shimano chainrings are not. Raceface cranks are good, raceface chainrings are good. truvativ cranks are good but heavy, can;t
comment on chainrings as not used.

OK. Again lovely reply. I realise that the quality is not the difference....in fact that seems to be the _problem_.
I get the impression that the quality is not going _up_ to match the thinner bits needed to do 9-speed. People are commenting about broken chains and bent rings more with
9-speed stuff.
- I have to say, it is hard to sort the "$500 bike / 6' dropper" (or some fool using _9_-speed chain on _8_-speed shifters.....see below) from the genuine reviews.,
<G>
I see the wheel strength thing and the need stop simply setting ghe wheel further and further to one side.
- (self defence here. I am also studying all the sort of "general science" of bikes; offset hubs and different spoke tensions etc caused by all this. New to me. I went
out after I read that looked at the wheel and saw what we were up against, even with 8-speed) .
- I need to explain. My last (road) bike had a steel frame and non-indexed shifters....10-speed was the duke's nits <G>)
OK. To the nitty-gritty.
I take your point that cheaper stuff may well have more problems than the supposed parameters, in simple "slop".
You use 8-speed chain on 9-speed chainset. Ok. Good. That frees up one avenue of trial.
Truvativ actually make both steel and Al chainrings. MTBR has a few bad writeups for them. Bending and such, and jamming chains. But no comment about whether they
were steel or Al, 8 or 9-speed.

Quote:

if you buy cheap, it is cheap to replace. Better to replace a £20 component 3 times a year than a £60 one twice a year. Go with the X-type and I don't think yuo will be
dissappointed. BBs are the equivalent in price to a mid range ISIS but there is less choice at the moment.

Point taken. Just one thing. I can buy so much cheaper in the US than here that I simply do that. This of course takes time. It means having "stock" in case of sudden
failure. I suppose that cuts both ways. Cheaper the "stock" two cheap items than two expensive ones. <G>

Quote:

good gear makes for a more enjoyable ride, thats for sure.

But as you said, I think, you have to go quite a way to really see the differnce and as you approach the top it gets less and less obvious.

Quote:

they say you shouldn't, but i use an Sram chain and shimano mechs. never noticed.

Ahah! This is what I am asking about. Mix and match experiences. Good!

Quote:

make the decision on the absis of which shifter you prefer as the emch is just the shifters slave. personally i prefer the shiamno shifters so i also use shimano mechs.
X-9 I think but I might be wrong.

OK. I will chase up X9 and see what pops up.

Quote:

FWIW I use XT shifters, Xt mechs, sram chain, Sram cassette and raceface chainrings. Hope this helps.

Now _that_ is mix and match experience. Thank you.
Nick

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