Quana: I Told You So!

Carrera

I work for the Security Services.

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"Everybody has a philosophy. However, what philosophy you have is a matter of choice, and most people don't make a conscious choice with regard to what philosophy they accept."

darkboong

Lebanese, backed by UN. There is no conspiracy to fake the victims Crappy.



You take the word of the murderers at face value ?



The footage showed an olive grove, the building that was bombed was in the middle of a built up area. Dan Gillerman said that the footage was not in fact of Qana.



There is no evidence that rockets were fired near that house or that rockets were stored within that house. The IDF have not provided any evidence, the people on the ground found no evidence (again half a dozen independent sources).



The big one being that the IDF bombs the fuck out of anyone leaving the areas it has leafleted. The IDF doesn't always leaflet either.



I listed them, you ignored the post. The Reuters photographer was not among them.



So far you haven't presented one bit of credible evidence to support your revolting conspiracy theory about Qana. Not to mention the fact that Qana is not a one off, this has happened to 1000 Lebanese civillians.



Bullshit. I'll take the word of the Pathologists and people on the scene before an Armchair Quarterback's 10,000 mile distant opinion.

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darkboong

Quite correctly too.

The IDF admitted that it had launched five 155mm shells within 250 yards of the victims. I pointed out to you that the margin of error with one of those 155mm rounds is 370m. The kill zone is 50m. The sole "physical" proof that the IDF offered was a piece of shrapnel in a kid. Yet the man on the scene actually picked up a chunk of (still warm) 155mm shell casing from the nearby the impact crater.

It is no coincidence that these accidents always happen to the IDF when they fire indiscriminate weapons at unarmored civillians. It gets pretty sickening to hear them complaining that it's always someone else's fault too.



With good reason. Remember the IDF footage of ambulances being used to move rockets around ? Remember how they came up with that film after shooting up a few ambulances ? Remember how it was shown to be utter bollocks, and that the Ambulances were in fact being loaded with stretchers ?

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Carrera

It's difficult for me to demonstrate where your argument has gone astray on account of my posts being deleted.
The evidence for photo faking and staging of massacres is well-known and nothing new.

"The images we have seen are completely controlled by Hezbollah, so you can put whatever stock in that you wish. The EU photos and others of "Green Helmet" that have been dug up show this guy all over Lebanon - same guy, same outfit, in areas miles and miles from each other in a matter of hours. How does that work?
Now - obviously some children have been killed. The pictures I have see do not show 50+ bodies. More like half a dozen. But again, with Hezbollah controlling we only get to see what they show us. Killing of innocents is wrong. But - I have yet to see all of the "Israel is evil" crowd that has been posting here actually defend Hezbollah's insistence in hiding behind women and children, firing rockets from civilian areas. I have not seen them defend the years of Hamas, Palestinian, and Hezbollah terror attacks on Israel that killed hundreds and hundreds of innocent men, women, and children. All I see is "terrorist apologists" making up excuses as to why Hezbollah is a great, humanitarial, and wholly moral group that was unfairly attacked by Israel. What say you?"

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"Everybody has a philosophy. However, what philosophy you have is a matter of choice, and most people don't make a conscious choice with regard to what philosophy they accept."

Carrera

Are posts going to be banned on the basis of statements that security services have prevented a number of terrorist incidents the public knew little about?
Why on earth is it supposedly against the soapbox rules to express the view terrorist plots in the U.K. are actively being plotted and that security personnel try to prevent them?
To my mind it would help everybody is you had a discussion with the site administration and then post us all a specific list of what the rules actually are. Then at least we all know where we stand.
As things stand, posts are either removed or mysteriously disappear simply because they don't reflect your particular view which is what evidently got up Colorado Rider's nose - and many others.
Incidentally, have you see the news today and when, if ever, are you going to apologise for your assumption I don't know what I'm talking about?

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"Everybody has a philosophy. However, what philosophy you have is a matter of choice, and most people don't make a conscious choice with regard to what philosophy they accept."

darkboong

Nah, you work for the Insecurity Services.

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darkboong

The real reason is because my argument stands and you are firmly in the wrong. It is a direct consequence of reality smacking you hard in the face I am afraid.



I am not aware of any such evidence. If you can provide some, do. So far all you have done is talking about F-16s and pictures of women in front of rubble.



I am not going to the word of an unnamed blogger on trust. Provide evidence to back up that claim. I can find more evidence that the IDF is censoring the media than you have presented to support your Green Helmet Conspiracy Theory.

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2FAST4U

Carrera...I think your opponents should check the news today....Hey what's up with the dude from Colorado? Is he still here?

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[/b]drinking ale from a barrel[/b]

Carrera

Your argument gets more shaky by the day, I'm afraid.
Myself, Melanie Phillips and a few more so-called "doom-mongers" have warned repeatedly that the U.K. has allowed extremist, Jihadist organizations to become established, especially in London and Birmingham. Every time, we're hissed at and sniggered at, even on BBC political-debates.
Every time, of course, we turn the same circle round, with you stating there is no terrorist threat to the U.K. or coming from the U.K. and yet time and time again we see who is right and who is wrong - and it ain't Melanie Phillips.
I recall you saying before the 7/7 attacks there would never be a terrorist attack in this country. After the attack took place, you said it was the IRA. What's the excuse this time going to be this time, I wonder. Ooops, don't tell me. Jews were behind the latest plot. Or maybe it has something to do with the anti-foxhunting brigade.

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"Everybody has a philosophy. However, what philosophy you have is a matter of choice, and most people don't make a conscious choice with regard to what philosophy they accept."

Carrera

I suspect Colorado Rider left although it's hard to say - maybe he's lurking or posting on a different part of the forum.
I'll bet he's a pretty good cyclist as Colorado is a pretty good place to ride a bike. Likewise, I can't quite recall the name of that famous American climber who won King Of The Mountains but I think his team trained in Colorado. I think it was the 7/11 team but I can't place the name of the cyclist who led them.
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"But the Colorado rocky mountain high
I've seen it rainin fire in the sky
The shadow from the starlight is softer than a lullabye
Rocky mountain high (high colorado) rocky mountain high (high colorado)" (John Denver)

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"Everybody has a philosophy. However, what philosophy you have is a matter of choice, and most people don't make a conscious choice with regard to what philosophy they accept."

Carrera

"It is a direct consequence of reality smacking you hard in the face I am afraid."

"WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Terrorists were in the final stages of planning to blow up planes heading to the United States, U.S. Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff said Thursday.
The plans involving flights from the United Kingdom were "suggestive of an al Qaeda plot," he said.

British police said they had arrested 21 suspects in the plot to blow up passenger jets flying between the United Kingdom and the United States.
The effects of the plot rippled across the globe Thursday."

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"Everybody has a philosophy. However, what philosophy you have is a matter of choice, and most people don't make a conscious choice with regard to what philosophy they accept."

darkboong

No one is denying that those folks are out there. The sniggers and derision are at your inadequate understanding of motivation. I can't speak for all of the angry Muslims out there, but in *all* the cases that I am aware of the motivation behind their actions is retaliation against Judeo-Christian aggression. This is supported by research that was conducted by Robert Pape of the University of Chicago (which I have mentioned here before) http://www.amconmag.com/2005_07_18/article.html.

Take note :
"Since suicide terrorism is mainly a response to foreign occupation and not Islamic fundamentalism, the use of heavy military force to transform Muslim societies over there, if you would, is only likely to increase the number of suicide terrorists coming at us."

Bearing in mind that he has studied thousands of attacks I think his judgement carries substantially more weight than your and Mel P's claims.



Liar. I accept that there is a terrorist threat, but I believe that the threat is far less than it is hyped up to be. Statistically I am far more likely to snuff it from road accidents, falling down the stairs, a drunken lout attacking me, a mugger attacking me, going to hospital for a routine treatment, an adverse reaction to prescription medication or even cancer.

Sure, I accept some of risk is reduced because the attack are prevented, but that is a pretty slim hope because a terrorist only has to get "lucky" once, the police have to be lucky 100% of the time. The key is to remove the motivation for the attacks, and in the case of massacring Muslims and ripping their countries apart that is pretty easy to stop.

If you like I am resigned to the fact that there will be attacks, but I feel that they are a relatively unlikely to happen compared to being hit by a car (as you know yourself).



Liar. You have not provided a quote because you just made that up.



Liar. You have not provided a quote because you just made that up.

Qana did happen. Those kids were killed by the IDF bombing wantonly and indiscriminately.

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darkboong

That's one *new* Plot. How about the other four you mentioned that you haven't bothered to tell us about ?

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Carrera

"The sniggers and derision are at your inadequate understanding of motivation."

The sniggers and derision seem to be ongoing. Melanie Phillips is an absolute tiny minority in this country. I recently saw her on Newsnight being hissed at when she spoke of the threat of terrorism. She was openly mocked.

"I am aware of the motivation behind their actions is retaliation against Judeo-Christian aggression. This is supported by research that was conducted by Robert Pape of the University of Chicago."

I'm well aware there is no such thing ever as one party being totally right and the other party totally wrong. Neither do I make the claim I myself am totally right or know everything there is to know. In fact, Muhammad Ali put it very well when he stressed Ku Klux Klan and white slave traders carried out terrible crimes the same as Islamic extremists.
As I said repeatedly, I don't have any axe to grind against everyday decent Moslems like Amir Khan and am well aware the Islamofascism movement is an "extreme" variant of Islam - that thousands of moslems want nothing to do with.
Also, you have moderate moslem countries such as Egypt, of course.
Back to the point: You can't justify terrorism carried out by groups who hide in the shadows and wear no uniform on the basis they have a gripe against Jews or Christians. If the west was really so terrible and corrupt, how come thousands of migrants from the Middle East want to live in France, the U.K. or the U.S.?
O.K. there is Iraq which was a misguided war, I think. But then again Clinton defended Moslems in Serbia as I recall. The U.S. also gave millions of dollars to Middle Eastern countries, even backing up the Palestinians economically.

"Since suicide terrorism is mainly a response to foreign occupation and not Islamic fundamentalism, the use of heavy military force to transform Muslim societies over there, if you would, is only likely to increase the number of suicide terrorists coming at us."

I think you're very misguided here. The Islamo fascism movement isn't really just about defence at all and this is where the wool has been pulled over your eyes. They specifically want Jews out of Israel completely. They want to see Jerusalem as an Islamic capital. Also, some factions seek the total destruction of the U.S. Other factions want to see Sharia Law established in Europe.
Why do you think George Galloway was attacked not so long ago during the elections? The people who wanted his head, so to speak, made it clear democracy was not part of the deal. Galloway required police protection and went on to thank the police. Even Galloway called these peope extremists.
There are thousands of extremists who don't want democracy, hate Israel, promote Islamicisation of Europe and a global Islamic order. They exist, I'm afraid and apologising for their cause isn't going to help.

"Bearing in mind that he has studied thousands of attacks I think his judgement carries substantially more weight than your and Mel P's claims."

Melanie Phillips knows a heck of a lot about this stuff. She's been warning the Government over here for years and recently she's been in the U.S. on Fox TV where she again warned about the threat from extremists based in London.

"Liar. I accept that there is a terrorist threat, but I believe that the threat is far less than it is hyped up to be."

You also told me many months back there would never be a terrorist attack in the U.K. and you weren't alone. The same opinion was aired on the Beeb. If the threat is "far less hyped" what do you call Madrid, Bali, New York, London and Israel, for that matter?

"Statistically I am far more likely to snuff it from road accidents..."

On that one, I do agree. I've been "creamed" twice now by car-drivers and I confess the odds for being bumped off by a four wheeled taxi driver are very high.

Even so, terrorism remains a serious threat that has to be acted upon.

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"Everybody has a philosophy. However, what philosophy you have is a matter of choice, and most people don't make a conscious choice with regard to what philosophy they accept."