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Fidel Castro

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Old 25-08.-2006, 07:37 AM   #136
limerickman
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Default Re: Fidel Castro

Quote:
Originally Posted by thebluetrain
I already told you twice that the language was not directed at me. I never said it was. Get it?
Are you going to answer the questions I asked you or are you going to keep ducking them because you know you are wrong and biased?


I am responsible for the language I use.

And for the record - my use of abusive language in that specific instance was directed toward that member who'd been banned two days previously in early 2005.
Unfortunately because that member was banned - his posts were deleted from this site. Therefore I cannot cite the specific thread in which that abusive term was used toward me, by the member.
I can assure you that the member in question used the same abusive term toward me first.

Of course, this doesn't mitigate the fact that I shouldn't have used abusive language in reply in that instance.

mea culpa.
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morelike hypocrisy.
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Old 25-08.-2006, 07:39 AM   #137
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Default Re: Fidel Castro

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Originally Posted by thebluetrain
It says the USCG followed the Deadly Force Triangle and the Use of Force Continuum that I told you read.
They say no such thing...they say that the Coast Guard fired on them.
Now that you have drawn attention to the links,I think that people
will check the links now,and anyone can see that the reports in those links say that the Coast Guard fired on them.
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Old 25-08.-2006, 07:49 AM   #138
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Default Re: Fidel Castro

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevebaby
You are trying to distort what I said,which was that the US Coast Guard had fired on immigrants.I posted reports that confirm what I said.
I am not trying to distort anything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevebaby
If someone fired into your house while you were inside it,would you not consider that you had been fired upon?
QUOTE]





[QUOTE=stevebaby]
If If someone fired at your car while you were in it,would you not consider that you had been fired upon?
?
If I was doing something illegal(which alien smuggling and drug smuggling is according to the US Govt.) and local law enforcement deemed it necessary to fire upon my house or car (not me) in order to get me to stop then I wouldnt consider it being fired upon
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevebaby
If the immigrants on the boat had fired "warning" or "disabling" shots at the Coast Guard vessel,would the Coast Guard skipper....or the US government...consider that they had been fired upon?
Once again, read the Deadly Force Triangle and the Use of Force Continuum. You obviously did not read them or you would not have asked this STUPID question.
They both say in a nutshell that any Federal Law Enforcement Officer can use the reasonable amount of force necassary to compell compliance. In this case the immigrants would be toast.

Last edited by thebluetrain : 25-08.-2006 at 08:22 AM.
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Old 25-08.-2006, 09:17 AM   #139
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Default Re: Fidel Castro

Quote:
Originally Posted by thebluetrain
I am not trying to distort anything.

If I was doing something illegal(which alien smuggling and drug smuggling is according to the US Govt.) and local law enforcement deemed it necessary to fire upon my house or car (not me) in order to get me to stop then I wouldnt consider it being fired upon
Once again, read the Deadly Force Triangle and the Use of Force Continuum. You obviously did not read them or you would not have asked this STUPID question.
They both say in a nutshell that any Federal Law Enforcement Officer can use the reasonable amount of force necassary to compell compliance. In this case the immigrants would be toast.
First you deny that they were fired on,then you admit that they were fired on...but not really!

If the people on the vessel were political refugees fleeing a repressive regime,why did they not stop when ordered,and claim asylum?
You're really funny...someone shoots at your car or house while you're in them and you don't consider that being "fired on".
ROFLMAO
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Old 25-08.-2006, 10:15 AM   #140
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Default Re: Fidel Castro

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevebaby
If the people on the vessel were political refugees fleeing a repressive regime,why did they not stop when ordered,and claim asylum?
ROFLMAO
Why are you asking me this question? I or the USCG could not possibly have any idea why the people onboard didnt stop when ordered until after the fact. Only the people onboard can answer that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevebaby
You're really funny...someone shoots at your car or house while you're in them and you don't consider that being "fired on".
ROFLMAO
Ok I will try to make it simple for you. If the USCG "fired on" those immigrants they would be dead. No one was killed so no one was "fired on". And I will say it again the USCG does not "fire on" anyone unless all 3 parts(ability, oppurtunity, and jeopardy) of the Deadly Force Triangle are present.
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Old 25-08.-2006, 10:20 AM   #141
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Default Re: Fidel Castro

Just sink the damn ship. If we sink a few of them then...I'd suspect that they would think twice about it.

Just a theory.
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Old 25-08.-2006, 01:18 PM   #142
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Default Re: Fidel Castro

Quote:
Originally Posted by thebluetrain
Why are you asking me this question? I or the USCG could not possibly have any idea why the people onboard didnt stop when ordered until after the fact. Only the people onboard can answer that.
Ok I will try to make it simple for you. If the USCG "fired on" those immigrants they would be dead. No one was killed so no one was "fired on". And I will say it again the USCG does not "fire on" anyone unless all 3 parts(ability, oppurtunity, and jeopardy) of the Deadly Force Triangle are present.
Whether they were fired on to disable the vessel or fired on as a warning...they were fired on.
Anyway...the Coast Guard gunner may have missed.
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Old 25-08.-2006, 01:31 PM   #143
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Default Re: Fidel Castro

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillM
Just sink the damn ship. If we sink a few of them then...I'd suspect that they would think twice about it.

Just a theory.
In which case,you should be thanking the brave pilots of the Cuban Air Force who shot down hijacked aircraft...no?
Sinking the vessels of freedom-loving refugees from an "evil pig" dictator...that doesn't sound too "freedom-loving" to me!
Sinking the vessels of illegal economic immigrants...would the Coast Guard do that?
Do you think these illegal immigrants have anything to do with the crime rate in Florida? Pretty clever of Castro,to allow the dissenters and criminals to go to the US...it saves locking them up or executing them.What a kind and compassionate man he must be.
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Old 25-08.-2006, 01:52 PM   #144
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Default Re: Fidel Castro

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevebaby
Whether they were fired on to disable the vessel or fired on as a warning...they were fired on.
Anyway...the Coast Guard gunner may have missed.
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Old 27-08.-2006, 02:34 AM   #145
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Default Re: Fidel Castro

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Originally Posted by thebluetrain
Ask him what Australia does with their suspected illegal immigrants.
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Old 27-08.-2006, 07:47 PM   #146
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Default Re: Fidel Castro

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Originally Posted by nns1400
Ask him what Australia does with their suspected illegal immigrants.
What does Australia have to do with it?
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Old 28-08.-2006, 03:54 AM   #147
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Default Re: Fidel Castro

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What does Australia have to do with it?

It is very important to stevebaby that we don't consider such problems in some sort of "moral bubble." We must compare all situations to other countries in the world, so I was interested in his take about Australia's immigration policies as they compare to the evil US way of handling it.
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Old 28-08.-2006, 04:03 AM   #148
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Default Re: Fidel Castro

Quote:
Originally Posted by nns1400
It is very important to stevebaby that we don't consider such problems in some sort of "moral bubble." We must compare all situations to other countries in the world, so I was interested in his take about Australia's immigration policies as they compare to the evil US way of handling it.


I know literally dozens of people who emigrated to Australia at various times.
Some went permanently - others went to "see the world".

It's far easier for someone from Ireland to gain a work visa to enter Australia than it is for someone from here to enter the USA.
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Old 28-08.-2006, 04:11 AM   #149
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Default Re: Fidel Castro

Quote:
Originally Posted by limerickman
I know literally dozens of people who emigrated to Australia at various times.
Some went permanently - others went to "see the world".

It's far easier for someone from Ireland to gain a work visa to enter Australia than it is for someone from here to enter the USA.

And I would imagine they went legally. I asked what Australia did with suspected illegal immigrants.
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Old 28-08.-2006, 04:23 AM   #150
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Default Re: Fidel Castro

Quote:
Originally Posted by nns1400
It is very important to stevebaby that we don't consider such problems in some sort of "moral bubble." We must compare all situations to other countries in the world, so I was interested in his take about Australia's immigration policies as they compare to the evil US way of handling it.

Since stevebaby isn't around, I'll explain:

and excerpt from Amnesty International
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Inde...open&of=ENG-AUS
The ''Pacific Solution''

Australia's response to the Tampa incident illustrates what the government subsequently described as a ''deliberately tough'' approach to asylum seekers and refugees, aimed at ''attacking smuggling practices and sending the strongest possible message to smugglers and their clients [mostly asylum seekers]''.(7) The government thus intentionally treats harshly any unwelcome asylum seekers in order to deter others from trying to reach Australia with the assistance of smugglers.(8) It claims this helps maintain Australia's capacity to select recognized refugees from among those ''most in need'' overseas. However, critics argue that ''t is misleading to claim [such refugees] are the ones who happen to be at the head of a queue of persons ranked according to greatest need. They are the lucky ones in a lottery where some connection with Australia or greater compatibility with Australia usually counts for something.''(9) The Australian response to the [i]Tampa has reinforced existing trends in government policy and added new, more extreme measures.

The Tampa incident occurred at a time when international people smuggling syndicates were sending increasing numbers of asylum seekers and migrants to Australia by boat with false promises of eventual permanent residence. The smugglers exploited the fears and desperation of asylum seekers and migrants mainly from Iraq and Afghanistan, who no longer felt safe in host countries increasingly unwilling to provide care and protection. While overall arrival figures in Australia were small in comparison with other countries (4,137 people arriving in the 12 months to 30 June 2001), the Australian government was concerned about the failure of previous policies aimed at stopping their arrival.(10)

For example, the government has claimed that restricting refugee benefits in Australia and its 10-year-old practice of automatic detention of asylum seekers(11) were essential elements in an approach aimed at ''doing everything possible to fight people smuggling''(12); however, this did not discourage asylum seekers from trying to reach the country on dangerous boat trips arranged by smugglers.(13) Unlike most European countries receiving tens of thousands of asylum seekers each year, Australia's geographical situation meant that authorities were used to an average of no more than 1,000 asylum seekers arriving without visa by boat each year over the past 13 years.(14) Prime Minister Howard also suggested that detention facilities had reached capacity under Australia's mandatory detention system: ''I have to say that we are reaching a situation where our capacity physically, through detention facilities and otherwise, without massive additional expenditure to erect new facilities, that capacity is reaching the ceiling, it is reaching breaking point.''(15) This comment fails to consider whether it is necessary and appropriate to detain all asylum seekers, including for example, families with babies, who arrive without visas.
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