Page 3 - Iran Under Pressure

27-02.-2007, 07:44 AM

#31

limerickman

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Re: Iran Under Pressure

Quote:

Originally Posted by thebluetrain

You got proof that Israel asked permission?

Yep.

Your country's State Department gives final authorisation for all access to Israeli airspace, including Israel's own access to it's own airspace.
All civilian and military access to Israeli airspace is conditionally approved firstly by the Israeli's and is then approved by your country's State Department.

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morelike hypocrisy.

27-02.-2007, 08:01 AM

#32

limerickman

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Re: Iran Under Pressure

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carrera

My first point: Bush is, without a doubt, the stupidest, bungling excuse for a so-called war leader we've ever seen or are ever likely to see again. The questions begs to be raised again: Why in this world have the Americans' done Iran's job and removed the only buffer there was to Iranian expansion - Saddam Hussein and a strong Iraq?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carrera

"
I'm aware my views probably irritate Lim over Iran but I'm really not alone and possibly Lim isn't aware this view is actually shared by the Saudis and, likewise, the Saudis wouldn't be at all upset if someone knocked out Iran's nuclear facilities.
The Saudis are furious with Bush, perplexed and pretty much stunned any American leader would be dumb enough to send U.S. troops into Iraq to help Iran!!
So, now the Saudis are considering themselves going nuclear.
.

Before wrapping yourself up totally - you conveniently forget that it was 19 Saudi's - steeped in the tradition of Wahabbism - who planned and carried out it's attack on American in 2001.

The Saudi's - like the rest of the Middle East - despise America.
There may be Sunni/Shia tensions in the Middle East - but let's be clear those divisions are minute compared to the antagonism which the Middle East holds for the USA (and for the rest of the West too).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carrera

My view is simple (probably shared by the Saudis again). Israel should take out those facilities. Israel needs to stop being guided by Bush as he's essentialy the one who destabilised the region and seems pretty clueless as a war leader (even dodged the draft anyway). As a tactician, he's also clueless. His war tactics have been shambolic and he never should have sent in ground troops (or even invaded Iraq in the first place).

Agree and disagree.

When the USA gives you (Israel) 85% of your total annual GDP, it (USA) dictates what you can and cannot do.
The fact of the matter is that Israel cannot act unilaterally unless the USA gives it the go-ahead.
Regardless of who occupies the White House.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carrera

If you yourself feel comfortable over the prospect of Iran armed with a nuclear weapon, that's your choice and I figure you have the same right to your own view. However, this view isn't shared throughout the Arab World. Many Arabs are pretty mad the U.S. has made such a cock-up of foreign policy and can only conclude Bush is helping Iran for whatever reason.

Nuclear proliferation - be it American/British/wherever - shouldn't make anyone comfortable.

And Bush isn't seeking to assist Iran.

Last edited by limerickman : 27-02.-2007 at 05:40 PM.

27-02.-2007, 10:47 AM

#33

Carrera

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Re: Iran Under Pressure

The mind boggles. Surely somewhere in the recesses of the brain Bush keeps in a jar by the door he should understand what tends to happen when you interfere in the political evolution of a region?
Not only that but the tactics. To my mind the amount of casualties suffered in Iraq as well as wounded is a pretty dismal record for a supposed war leader.
So far the main winner has been Iran. Maybe the only reason Bush is now worried over Iran is on account of Israel since Israel certainly views Iran as far more of a threat than Saddam ever was with his skuds.
Basically I think if you don't know exactly what you're doing in these situations it pays to stay out.
Why Bush undermined the secular Bathist regime is beyond me. Under Saddam Christians, minority religions and women enjoyed relative peace. Now there is intolerance of Christians, Jews and Bush united the Shia across the entire Middle East.
I think he simply doesn't have a clue. I don't know how the Americans wound up with him or what possessed them to vote him into office.

Quote:

Originally Posted by limerickman

Yes, Bush is an idiot.
Pure and simple.

With regard to Iran and Iraq in Saddam's reign : yes, they fought and 8 year war in which SH was provided with weapons/finance/logistical support by Ronald Reagan/Rumsfeld.

That 8 year war cost 1m lives.
After such a war - I believe that neither Iraq or Iran had designs about attacking each other.

Bush lied in order to start a conflict with Iraq and removed SH.
The gain for Iran is the removal of a man who waged war upon them.
However, that gain is completely wiped out by the fact that Iran now has it's greatest enemy (USA) next door to it, albeit a terribly bogged down enemy.
So Iran hasn't gained - what has transpired since March 2003 has made the world (Middle East) much more dangerous.

Before wrapping yourself up totally - you conveniently forget that it was 19 Saudi's - steeped in the tradition of Wahabbism - who planned and carried out it's attack on American in 2001.

The Saudi's - like the rest of the Middle East - despise America.
Teah there may be Sunni/Shia tensions in the Middle East - but let's be clear those divisions are minute compared to the antagonism which the Middle East holds for the USA (and possible the rest of the West too).

Agree and disagree.

When the USA gives you (Israel) 85% of your total annual GDP, it (USA) dictates what you can and cannot do.
The fact of the matter is that Israel cannot act unilaterally unless the USA gives it the go-ahead.
Regardless of who occupies the Wgite House.

Nuclear proliferation - be it American/British/wherever - shouldn't make anyone comfortable.

And Bush isn't seeking to assist Iran.

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27-02.-2007, 11:04 AM

#34

wolfix

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Re: Iran Under Pressure

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carrera

Under Saddam Christians, minority religions and women enjoyed relative peace.

Before you post simple mindedness, you should have checked out the families of the 5,000 Kurds Saddam killed in a single village. The Kurds enjoy peace.......

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28-02.-2007, 01:00 AM

#35

Colorado Ryder

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Re: Iran Under Pressure

Quote:

Originally Posted by limerickman

Please provide a rational source for this. You accuse Carrera of not providing sources for his statements then you do the same. Of course you will probably just "edit" this post so you don't have to face someone challenging you.

28-02.-2007, 01:30 AM

#36

Carrera

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Re: Iran Under Pressure

Let's look at it logically. Saddam's regime was never a threat to your country or my country. Saddam certainly wasn't a threat to Israel post Desert Storm. True, Saddam was encouraging suicide bombings in Israel by funding families of the bombers but you have to ask the question does that justify the deaths of some 80 Iraqis a day, some 30,000 maimed American soldiers and now 3000 U.S. troops killed.
Added to that, Saddam spilled blood for your country and Europe in the Iran/Iraq war. He was a buffer against radical Islamic expansion in the Middle East and had far far more success preventing such radicalism than Bush since he presumed to take over.
Next point: Bush's so-called justice by hanging a 70 year old man under undignified conditions seemed to me to be a victory for the masked terrorists Bush apparently supports. At least, that's what I saw taking place - a band of masked Shia militia gloating over the murder of a Sunni (apparently on the basis of sectarian religious division).
I can't help but think Bush has done more to assist terrorists in the Middle East than even Bin Laden. His policies somehow leave me baffled.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfix

Before you post simple mindedness, you should have checked out the families of the 5,000 Kurds Saddam killed in a single village. The Kurds enjoy peace.......

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28-02.-2007, 01:53 AM	#37
Carrera Registered User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Staffordshire Posts: 4,802	Re: Iran Under Pressure The situation seems dire. According to what I saw on the news last night it seems as if Junior is going to attack Iranian installations, given Iran has no intention of halting uranium enrichment. The snag is, there will more than likely only be losers in such a war. My guess is Iran will respond my pouring thousands of ground troops into Iraq so Bush will more than likely be forced to call Americans up into active service. No way can Bush hope to win that kind of a war by nukes alone if Iranian soldiers saturate Iraq on the ground. Plus, Bush screwed up big time by allowing Iranian and Iraqi troops to update and vastly improve their ground capacity in a guerilla war. He will have to take on the entire Shia militia within Iraq as well as the Iranians which promises to be one hell of a prolonged conflict. So, it's hard to be optimistic. My guess is Israel will have problems, Iran will have trouble with the Kurds and (I kid you not) poor old Wurm could find himself dug into a trench side by side with Wolfix fighting the Iranian Guard on behalf of Bush. __________________ "Everybody has a philosophy. However, what philosophy you have is a matter of choice, and most people don't make a conscious choice with regard to what philosophy they accept."

28-02.-2007, 02:26 AM

#38

wolfix

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Re: Iran Under Pressure

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carrera

Let's look at it logically.

Next point: Bush's so-called justice by hanging a 70 year old man under undignified conditions seemed to me to be a victory for the masked terrorists Bush apparently supports.

Whatever happened to Saddam, and however undignifed it was, he deserved. He tortured people, He was a butcher of human rights.

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28-02.-2007, 03:58 AM

#39

Carrera

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Re: Iran Under Pressure

Fact numero uno: Saddam killed nothing like as many Iraqis as Bush, no comparison. Bush can boast of a figure of some 70 Iraqi dead on a daily basis and literally hundreds of thousands of children.
That is, every day in Iraq 70 people die in the sectarian violence Bush caused.
Fact numero dos: Bush's supports Augusto Pinochet. Pinochet tortured and murdered Chilean citizens by the thousand and was an outright war criminal. Bush claims Pinochet is a good man and Saddam is a bad man. On what basis is Saddam bad and Pinochet good? Maybe ask the victims?
Fact numero tres: As a military tactician Bush is a failure, I'm afraid to say. His handling of the war he based his career on has been dismal. He failed to secure the borders, he didn't send in enough forces, he failed to even comprehend the lessons of Vietnam (that of nationalist uprising) and amazingly, he did Iran's job for Iran and handed them hegemony on a plate.
(Fact numero cuatro) The man should resign from office. In Europe he has zero respect and finally his own countrymen are beginning to waken up to the dunderhead they somehow elected (sorry!).
I'm sorry Wolf it's not you personally and nothing personal in my post. Nothing against American people either who were sadly duped. I just think too many people lost their lives in a foolhardy, reckless war.
Let's give Obama a shot at sorting the mess out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfix

Whatever happened to Saddam, and however undignifed it was, he deserved. He tortured people, He was a butcher of human rights.

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"Everybody has a philosophy. However, what philosophy you have is a matter of choice, and most people don't make a conscious choice with regard to what philosophy they accept."

28-02.-2007, 08:07 AM	#40
slovakguy Registered User Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 267	Re: Iran Under Pressure ...just out of curiosity, i must ask our knowledgeable republican hawks what they think of this report from the times: US Generals 'Will Quit' If Bush Orders Iran Attack. does this make them soft on terrorism? are they now traitors under the sean hannity definition because their timidity is giving aid and comfort to a charter member of the "axis of evil"? doesn't this undercut cheney's pronouncement that all options are on the table?... ...oh, and wolfix, the kurds were in open rebellion against hussein at that time, waging a guerilla war against s. h.'s government. his actions against the kurds are by no means acceptable, but we (the u.s.) have allowed many other governments to suppress rebellions/revolutions with much sterner hands... __________________ "To Hell with poverty, we'll get drunk on cheap wine." --Gang of Four, To Hell With Poverty Last edited by slovakguy : 28-02.-2007 at 08:19 AM.

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