CCA implodes!!!!

Fausto Coppied

If you or Uboat can prove a thing you say I'd feel better.

Ubaot claims the Symmetric budget is just under a million dollars. If so they offered more than 10% to one rider? Hard to believe. They would have had to cut the squad by at least two guys.

They have 13 men and three women plus a support staff. Do the math, if you as you claim all the riders are getting betwen $30K to $60K then in salaries alone they are paying about $720,000, then you have support staff, minmum three or four people so add another $120,000. That leaves you less than $150,000 for all expenses.

The numbers just do not add up.

Since none of you have ever run a team with a budget of $300,000 or more and I have, I'll stick to my numbers unless you can prove yours.

Go ahead.....

Fausto Coppied

Uboat, anytime you or kclw want to post some proof to your figures go right ahead.


I'm still looking for my Cunningham email. I may no longer hjave it as it was a few computers ago. But maybe I do.

Here is an earlier reference made to a discussion I had with him. I would suggest you call Cunningham to confirm, OK, since you are so close to the team.


24-06.-2005, 05:18 AM #21 Eddie Arzouian vbmenu_register("postmenu_1966456", true);


http://www.cyclingforums.com/image....line=1121116629

Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Binghamton,NY
Posts: 394


Re: Talk about peaking!
Mark Cunningham of Symmetrics phoned me a couple months ago (he's another one of those people in cycling that Van de Wille says will not talk to me), and he seemed to indicate that indeed they will be increasing their budget long the lines mentioned above. He has a solid a five-year plan.


When I mentioned the coverage of Beauce I was not referring to results, anybody can post those. I was referring to getting behind the scenes and explaining the issues. Both Pedal and CC seem incapable of that. Did either one interview Dave Butler and expand on his thoughts?

Who else do you think will do it, The Globe and Mail!

Fausto Coppied

So this is pretty typical, you asked Uboat, or most other posers, that's posers not posters, on this site and others to provide proof to anything and they clam right up.

kclw

The reason why you don't have any proof is because we don't have any we can send you.

The only proof I have is from talking to riders, sponsors, and members of the teams organization.

Really my word of mouth is the same as your email. How do I know you didn't make that email up? Prove that you didn't write it yourself.

I know about what their budget is. Do I need to prove to you what it is? Not at all. You can believe me or you not. Really proving it to you means nothings at all.

I ask you this in the past couple of years Symetrics has signed several new sponsors including a new title sponsor. Do you think these sponsors signed on for free.

Fausto Coppied

You still cannot explain the math.

Go ahead and try...use the numbers you provided yourself.

If you or Uboat can prove a thing you say I'd feel better.

Ubaot claims the Symmetric budget is just under a million dollars. If so they offered more than 10% to one rider? Hard to believe. They would have had to cut the squad by at least two guys.

They have 13 men and three women plus a support staff. Do the math, if you as you claim all the riders are getting betwen $30K to $60K then in salaries alone they are paying about $720,000, then you have support staff, minmum three or four people so add another $120,000. That leaves you less than $150,000 for all expenses.

The numbers just do not add up.

Since none of you have ever run a team with a budget of $300,000 or more and I have, I'll stick to my numbers unless you can prove yours.

Go ahead.....

kclw

You suck at math. Lets me figure it out for you.

First the women are not paid. The womens team is not registered as a UCI team.

Second lets go with 30,000-60,000 per male rider. This is an average of 45,000 (which is probably high, the majority of the riders are closer to 30,000). So 10 riders making 45,000 is $450 000, this leaves $550 000. Those number make sense to me.

As for Ryder, one of the sponsors was will to cover half of his salary if he signed.

Talking about the team with huge budget that you ran into the ground does not do you any good. You are just one of many incompetent team managers.

Fausto Coppied

Right away you are wrong or misinformed the team has 13 men.

What about support staff. Do you think they work for free? They don't.

How about daily stipends?

Do you know what one overseas trip or cross continental trip costs for 8 to 13 guys plus staff? About $40,000 + per trip.

Do the math.

Try again.

Fausto Coppied

Rob Jones, Editor of Canadian Cyclist, a blithering idiot!!!

Here is but one example, "It is time for drastic changes to the way the Canadian Cycling Association (CCA) conducts its operations. This is a very bold statement, but one that I feel is necessary if our sport is going to survive and prosper at an elite level in the environment that exists for all sports these days."

Next few lines,

"Given the conditions that the CCA faces, I believe that they are actually doing an excellent job, but it isn't enough."

So which is it Rob? Why "drastic change" if they are doing an excellent job".

Truth is the CCA is doing a terrible job. By Rob Jones just cannot bring himself to say that. Furthermore, when we say the CCA, we now are down ot about five employees in Ottawa and three of them that know next to nothing about cycling and never leave the office.

Rob thinks he is making bold statement!!! I've been saying the very same thing for four years. Rob finally wakes up, almost, when the sport is on its last legs.

How about hiring somebody to run the sport, Rob, that knows the sport, instead of people like Lorraine Lafreniere and Steve Lacelle and Kim Sebrango before her? Why not mention how Bill Kinash, President of the CCA left the marketing position there open for 21 months and walked away form a $15,000,00 investment in the sport by the government without one new sponsor after the 2003 World Championships. If I was the government and the CCA did that to me, I would not give them anymore money either. Why not ask, even demand that?

Let's keep in mind Rob Jones makes a lot of money with the Canadian Cycling Association. Just look at the CCA web site. Jones long ago compromised his integrity.

Rob Jones is not part of the solution he has long been part of the problem.

http://www.canadiancyclist.com/default2.html


September 19/07 7:00 pm EDT - A Blueprint for Change - An Editorial

A Blueprint for Change - An Editorial

It is time for drastic changes to the way the Canadian Cycling Association (CCA) conducts its operations. This is a very bold statement, but one that I feel is necessary if our sport is going to survive and prosper at an elite level in the environment that exists for all sports these days.

Cycling in Canada is still running on an old model, whereby national sports bodies received the majority of their funding from government, with an occasional sponsor allowing them to offer some additional programs (or usually top up funding for required programs).

However, government has changed the funding model drastically, with funding tied to specific programs (such as BMX or mountain bike), where the greatest potential for immediate return (ie, medals) is identified. Funding is even being cut if a sport manages to bring in sponsors. This leaves little or no budget for development, or for sectors of the sport that have not been identified by Sport Canada as having a high payoff (in the short term).

Cycling is also suffering under the added burden of having to support multiple sectors that have little cross over; something that few other sports face. Consider that the CCA is required to support Road, Mountain Bike, Track, BMX and Paralympic disciplines - and these are just the Olympic disciplines, leaving Cyclo-cross and Downhill out in the cold.

It is as if swimming had one federation for swimming, diving, syncro and water polo; or skiing had alpine, nordic, freestyle and ski jumping in the same association fighting for a slice of the same pie.

Given the conditions that the CCA faces, I believe that they are actually doing an excellent job, but it isn't enough.

The fight for Olympic spots continues to get tougher, as the IOC and UCI place increasingly demanding criteria in place. The cost to have our athletes compete at the events necessary to achieve the level of performance required to be competitive, and to get the results needed to earn those all important Olympic spots (for which government funding flows) also continues to rise.

It is really a Catch-22: the CCA gets money for results, but can't get results without having money to spend on programs. And the government keeps slashing what they provide and/or setting the bar ever higher.

Personally, I think that, if the truth be told, the current federal regime sees little or no value in supporting sports outside of the North American pro leagues, and has set the system up so that sports are doomed to fail. It is no use pointing to the money that the Australians pour into sport, because we are just not going to see that happen in Canada - the public support is not there and never will be.

Therefore, I predict that if the CCA continues on the current path of trying to be all things to all people, and depends upon government funding to achieve its goals, then we are doomed to seeing our sport wither.

It is time for the CCA to step off the funding merry go round and take charge of its own future. I spend a lot of time at events all over the world, and get to see a large variety of programs that are used to support athletes. To my mind, the system that the CCA needs to adopt is along the lines of that used by USA Cycling for their U23 program, and by the Swisspower team to support Swiss mountain bikers.

At the Champery World Cup earlier in the season, I was a guest of Thomas Frischknecht and the Swisspower team. I had a chance to stay with the team, eat with the team, get to know the riders a bit, and have a long conversation with Thomas about the program.

What it boils down to is that the Swiss mountain bike coach Andi Seeli saw that mountain biking was not getting federation resources (road was and is the priority), and decided that he needed to step outside the cycling federation and build a program.

Thomas said that Andi came to him with a proposal: use Thomas' celebrity to draw sponsors and build a pro team that would allow identified younger athletes to develop with the support (financial, coaching, equipment) they require. While Thomas would be the initial draw for sponsors, as the younger riders began to get results they would also attract sponsors.

This program has grown to have a multi-million dollar budget and has produced World Cup winners and world champions and, even though Thomas has stated that he will retire after the 2008 season, he is confident that the program will continue.

USA Cycling has developed a similar program for its U23 men - primarily on the road, but also some offroad. The team has a full list of equipment sponsors, plus a financial backer - VMG. VMG (Velocity Made Good) is a corporate sponsor that certainly couldn't/wouldn't pony up the funds needed to sponsor an entire national program, but they could see the value in working with this one segment of the national team. The result is that the riders get to train and race together all season, and get access to some bigger events (such as the Tour of California), which they certainly wouldn't on smaller squads. A number of riders have already graduated to larger squads.

In a small and uncoordinated way, this is what has begun to happen with Symmetrics, Expresscopy.com and Rocky Mountain-Haywood. Together, these squads are accounting for much of the rankings success that Canada has achieved in different sectors of the sport. This is particularly true in men's road racing where, without the efforts of Symmetrics, we would have no more than one male rider at the world championships road race next week (instead of three). Unfortunately, the Rocky Mountain-Haywood program is almost certain to scale down next year, and possibly disappear after Beijing.

The CCA has many valuable properties in its programs, but together they are too big and cross too many markets for any but the largest companies to sponsor - and cycling is not high on the list of these corporations. It is much more feasible for the CCA to sign a sponsor specifically for the women's road program, or the BMX program, or the cross-country or downhill programs, than it is for the entire national team. Each of these programs has value to a specific sponsor, depending upon the market they are trying to reach.

However, for this to happen requires a second major change at the CCA: a revamping of the Board and administrative structure. Currently, the Board is elected from among interested and passionate members of the cycling community. They meet a few times a year to be updated on the operational side of the Association and decide on the few policy issues which come up. This is an ineffective and outmoded model.

If you look at most Boards these days, members are recruited based on what they can bring to the table: financial acumen, marketing, legal, government or industry experience. They are then expected to be resources that the organization (whether it be non- or for profit) can use to achieve its goals.

CCA Board members are not selected that way but, despite that, we do have members on the current Board with useful experience and knowledge in many areas. Unfortunately, their expertise is not being harnessed to make full use of their abilities, so far as I can tell, nor is any effort being made to identify gaps and work to fill them.

This also points to a hole in the Committee structure at the CCA - there are High Performance, Development and Officials Committees, but what about a Marketing and Sponsorship Committee, or a Communications Committee, or a Government Relations Committee? A further Committee (which I believe is long overdue) is an Advisory Committee to the Board. This would consist of members of the industry, government, teams, athletes, media and other useful sectors.

I believe that the CCA needs to start recruiting effectively among the business community for Board and Committee members. There are many, many cycling enthusiasts in positions of authority, who would support cycling, but they are never asked and there is no place to fit them in, as the CCA currently operates.

In 1996, Canada won five medals at the Olympics, and did almost nothing to capitalize on it effectively. In 2000 we won none, but were luckily able to coast on our 1996 accomplishments. In 2004 we won two (one-sixth of all Canadian medals!), which again staved off drastic cuts to funding.

Hopefully, we will win medals in Beijing, but we need to be looking beyond that now - with 2010 Vancouver sucking up government resources, a bag full of medals still won't see a significant improvement in traditional sources of funding.

It is time for the CCA to take charge of its own future.

kclw

I was just going by your numbers (you said 13 rides including women), and didn't look it the exact roster. But still 13 riders, staff and trips the numbers work.

Remember many of the Races in South America have a large portion of the cost covered.

The normal for any team is wages make 75% of the budget. Racers are expensive.

Plus if you think 30 000K is too much you are out to lunch. 30 000K is women MTB money. What do you think Bisaro makes? Lea Davison (you will not have heard of her) american who rides for Trek makes $25K.

holli

Racers are expensive in north-America. It's not a bad thing as riders can make a living out of it but it's definitely holding riders in well paying teams in north-America rather than trying how far they could go in cycling. It's hard to leave a team that pays 30K/year+decent price money and go to a team that pays 10K and price money is very hard to get. There are maybe 2-4 guys in Symmetrics who can get good results in bigger races and those would deserve 30K/year.

__________________
Pain is just weakness leaving the body.

Fausto Coppied

NO, I clearly wrote 13 men and three women. 13 + 3:
"They have 13 men and three women plus a support staff. Do the math, if you as you claim all the riders are getting betwen $30K to $60K then in salaries alone they are paying about $720,000, then you have support staff, minmum three or four people so add another $120,000. That leaves you less than $150,000 for all expenses."

It is a myth that most of the expenses are covered, especially for a small Canadian team.

Have you ever received an invitation yourself to these races?

Most of your expenses are covered when you get there. Not before, not afterwards.

You really have no clue what you are talking about. You have no experience at this other than reading magazines.

Did you know at the World Championships the organizers do not pay ANY expenses for ANY teams, nothing, teams and countries pay it all for themselves.

kclw

My miss read of your writing, I apoligize. But my math still adds up.

Yes I have raced in South America. My flight was covered along with most (but not all) of my expenses.

Ed my experience in racing is vast and current. I am not some random.

Put it this way cycling has bought me a house. Can you say the same?

Yeah I know about World Championships, I have raced at Worlds. Again, can you say the same?

kclw

Lets pretend that you are right with every number you have quoted except the budget (300, 000 is the number you have beens saying)


1. Lets say 13 riders payed 10, 000 a piece plus 3 support staff paid the same.
$160,000
2. Now they pay 40,000 for each big trip they go on. I count 10 major trips this year (their schedual doesn't have all the races they have done) The is 400,000.

3. A ton of little trips lets say another $50,000.


Now using your figures I get a budget of at least $600,000.

I know your wage value is too low. The guys I know on the team are making 30+. Although I primarly know their A guys, I am sure the B guys are making less. Svien is making considerably more that 30,000.

kclw

Yeah racers are more expensive in N.A. Remember in Europe there is a lot more fast racers. If you are Cam Evans speed and hold out for 30,000 they will sign one of the 15 unsigned guys who is just a bit slower.