Is America already a fundamentalist State?

jhuskey

Carrera if I read you correctly I believe you may be mixing up Old Testament with New.
Much about war and killing in the Old and a totally different message in most of The New.
Besides if you try and over analyse you will find that the day,week month ,year and life has passed you by.

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Sobriety is over rated!

Carrera

Maybe you'll have an opportunity to view the documentary. It's called "Raised By The Hand of God" and caused a good deal of shock over here when it was screened on Channel 5.
Like many viewers, I concluded this was brainwashing and enforced indoctrination. To repeat my former points, I don't think it should be legal for parents to deny a proper State Education to their children but parents should have the right for their children to be "accurately informed" about the beliefs of Christians at school, should they (the parents wish). The beliefs of various religions should be taught and then children must be given a free choice to think for themselves and decide what ideology they will embrace.
The Biblical Parenting families were far removed from this line. Their was mind control. The children were forced to recite chapter and verse. Evolution books were simply banned (not even questioned). Media images were restricted so all "ungodly" movies or documentaries were prohibited."
I found a few comments on the net about the program. Almost all the comments were to express shock and many posters had found the websites of the folks who appeared in the documentary and written to complain:

(1)"I just switched over to have a look.
I am very anti indoctrination with virulent prejudicial ideologies. Poor kids havent' a chance to make thier own minds up about life have they.
It's like their living in a dicatatorial Taliban like state where everything is censored. They're aren't even allowed Harrp Potter books.Dreadful!"

(2) "Just another tragic example of parents who want to hit their children, probably because they were hit themselves or their church community tells them it's correct, selectively picking bits of the bible to validate decisions they've already made irrespective of it. It frightens me that there are grown adults who actually use the bible as some kind of parental guide - I mean, have you read that thing?!!"

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"Everybody has a philosophy. However, what philosophy you have is a matter of choice, and most people don't make a conscious choice with regard to what philosophy they accept."

jhuskey

The most effective type of brainwashing = Televison,movies,music. Try and stop it!

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Sobriety is over rated!

Carrera

One poster summed it up better:

"I'm curious, but did anyone else notice the way in which the interviewees would occasionally let a few 'bad' choices of words slip? For instance, when the father talked about 'moulding' his children rather than raising them. Or when the kids talked about themselves as a 'we' rather than as an 'I'?
Or the way in which their imposed isolation, through home-schooling and their parents decision to veto their friends and prospective partners, ultimately lingers on even into early adulthood?"

Another writes this:

"These people taking the bible so litterally and to extreames really worry me.. they should realise that the bible was written in a totally different time to our own where women still had no rights whatsoever and people got stoned.. well our society has moved on a lot since then and to carry on following such a dated script to its last detail is total lunicy!!! these families also worry me because they have no grasp on the real world or how it works.. one boy said i have never been to a club because i know what happens there.. well thats as stupid as saying i have never eaten an apple because i know i don't like the taste.. also there attitude that anyone who was not brought up in the same brutal way as themselves are less then themself and have a really low regard for them.. well im still looking for the bit in the bible thats says "and god said thou shalt look down on those who are different" bloody idiots!!! oh and don't even get me started on thier opinions on gays!!!! ahhhhhhh!!!!!! thoroughly pissed off!!!"

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"Everybody has a philosophy. However, what philosophy you have is a matter of choice, and most people don't make a conscious choice with regard to what philosophy they accept."

nosduh

I did not read this whole thread but wanted to chime in. I think Carrerra is taking an alarmist view of an entire country based on a 60 minute video. There are wackos and nutjobs in every country. He is looking at 1/100th of 1% and applying that to the other 99.9%.

If you want to talk about a fundamentalist State lets talk about the middle east.

I personally do believe in corporal punishment. I am 33 years old, have never been in a physical fight in my life, never stabbed anyone, shot anyone. I don't have violent fantasies and as a child my parents whipped my ass more than I can count. I watched violent movies all the time. Predator, Red Heat, Rambo, etc. Why am I not violent? Because I was also taught the difference between right and wrong. We had guns in the house. Why did I not touch them. Because I knew I would get my butt torn up.

Why did I get spanked so much? Because I deserved it. At my age I can look back on times and kind of look at the events leading up to, the punishment and the events after and go, "Damn! I needed my butt torn up."

Can you accomplish the same through other methods? In some cases yes, in some cases no.

What amazes me is people who fool themselves into thinking this world is getting better. It isn't. I am not saying all the decline is based on this one issue, but you did not have kids killing 32 people 50 years ago. Maybe if his parents had beat his butt a little more or punished in him in some other appropriate way he would have had not deteriorated to such a degree.

The "civilized" world is getting too civilized for its own good. We are removing the conseuqences from actions to such a degree we are eventually going to sink into anarchy.

There are things about our past that are shameful, but there are things about our present and future that could be worse. We need consequences to bad actions. Might not be a spanking, but we are raising generations of brats who feel they are entitled to a way of life and I am not just talking about the US.

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Hudson

Carrera

I'm just glad I have freedom of thought and (thus far) some freedom of expression within my current national boundaries (although this is changing slowly).
My view is all kids have a right to free, unbiased education. That means they must learn about all aspects of politics and ideology, what Jews believe, what Christians believe, what Moslems believe and, above all, the true nature of democracy.
And preferably I'd teach how modern politicians lie to us all and claim we live in a democratic society when, in reality, politicians are simply a throwback to fuedal Kings and Queens and do not respect the views of the people they claim to "represent".
Last point: Hark back to Tsarist Russia and you will see how the Tsars used religion to control the peasants, teaching them that God had established Tsarist rule and that their Christian duty was to obey the Tsar.
Now Bush claims God established his order too and, believe me, it's not in the interests of Blair and co for the masses over here to be educated, capable of questioning, opposing exploitation via Trade Unions or even nationalist identity.

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"Everybody has a philosophy. However, what philosophy you have is a matter of choice, and most people don't make a conscious choice with regard to what philosophy they accept."

cheapie

that's ridiculous. you believe the state should inform the a person's child about Christian beliefs?

again, it's very apparent you don't have kids or that you really don't have any religous beliefs. while these parents may have been overboard, your statements are way, WAY out of line. it's absurd to imagine a scenario in which a parent belonging to any religion would provide alternate views and let the child decide. not only that, but provide books teaching the opposite of what they believe.

can you imagine a liberal telling their child, "i believe bush is wrong and is satan personified, but i really think you should watch foxnews to get an opposing viewpoint. it's up to you to decide which viewpoint to embrace." that's absolutely ludicrious!

and there's nothing wrong with filtering what a child sees or reads. while i do not support the idea of isolating yourself from the outside world, it's certainly their prerogative to do so and it has been going on since the dawn of time. in fact, every parent does it to a certain extent.

again, you're not really against "brainwashing". just against the religious type. what about the brainwashing that happens when kids repeatedly taught that happiness comes from having more things and that you have no value unless you're thin and gorgeous? kids get that from tv everyday but where's the outrage against that?

Carrera

"Can you accomplish the same through other methods? In some cases yes, in some cases no."

Sure you can. Stable, caring, closely knit families (such as were often found in Spain) produced polite, well-dressed, hard-working adults and I never saw any paddles in those homes.
The social breakdown you refer to is caused by broken families, alcohol abuse, drugs, gangs, exploitation and various other social issues.
Funnily enough, I wish I had a dollar for every time I heard someone say, "I was wacked as a kid and it never did me any hard did it?"
What do they mean by that? I mean, in the documentary, there were 2 girls laughing and joking in a Bible group with their pastors, stating, "I got the strap and look at me! I'm not emotionally scarred!"
Hold on a minute! How does she know?
The first worrying sign was a kind of Stockholm syndrome whereby she stated she would now use the same Christian upbringing when she has her own family in future. Still, it takes a psychologist to discover to what degree these people have been affected. In the best cases (folks such as Lance and Schwarzennegger) the harsh upbringing can cause simply an obsessive drive to succeed (but often to the point of abnormality).
Did you know how many top Tour Riders had harsh upbringings or were orphans, Ullrich included (his dad beat him with a strap).
Others can turn to drink or drugs (Brian Wiilson?) or even themselves become aggressive. There are many side effects.

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"Everybody has a philosophy. However, what philosophy you have is a matter of choice, and most people don't make a conscious choice with regard to what philosophy they accept."

cheapie

which is worse? being a fundamental christian or being illiterate like this guy? plus, you don't have to eat sh$t to know it tastes bad. or shoot yourself in the toe to know that it will hurt.

cheapie

and since you're NOT a psychologist, mebbe you should just let it go!

vadiver

You are either very naive, ignornant, or just plain argumentative.

You watch a very slanted view documentary and stereo type an entire country and religious belief system.

You talk about Coresh and think all Christians must be like him. You may as well throw in Jeffs as well along with all of the other individuals with very narrow beliefs in which almost everyone else believes is wrong.

People who legally have their children out of the public schools still have to follow educational requirements for accredidation. That does not mean there are not parents the prevent their children from going to school. There are parents that keep their children in cages. When they get caught, they get punished. The vast majority of people in the US see this as wrong. Yet I am sure some Anti-American Anti-Religeous person like yourself could dig up enough people with similar religeous beliefs out of a country of 300M people and produce a 60 minute "documentary".

Aparently the brainwashing works, they have sold you on it.

Do you really care about America or Religion at all?

Carrera

"what about the brainwashing that happens when kids repeatedly taught that happiness comes from having more things and that you have no value unless you're thin and gorgeous? kids get that from tv everyday but where's the outrage against that?"

Well, I think that needs to change too. In fact, I frequently question to what degree we have all been mildy brainwashed and here is why:
Imagine we were having this discussion now and you had been raised in my country while I'd been raised in your country. And supposing I'd been raised in a Biblical family such as Floyd Landis's and you had been raised in a non Christian home. So, you ask yourself would we be having the same discussion or would you be trying to convince me the opposite of your line so far?
Put even more bluntly, supposing you'd been raised in North Korea, China or Mongolia. How different would your views be today?
My point: We are all influenced by the media, social values, what other folks may think or believe, by religion and politics.
So, I'm a great believer in free thinking, weighing up all the information collectively and not being told what to think by society, politicians, the Church e.t.c.
Maybe Robin Williams was hinting at this idea in Dead Poets Society movie.

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"Everybody has a philosophy. However, what philosophy you have is a matter of choice, and most people don't make a conscious choice with regard to what philosophy they accept."

chainstretched

So what this person is implying is that he has no problem with Christians, so long as they don't consider the Bible to be the true word of God.

Carrera

My view is really quite widespread over here of late. In the U.K. and Europe, religion is having a far harder time of it than in the U.S. or Russia.
I mean, Spain is changing totally, becoming more secular. In the U.K. Christian Church attendance is falling. The Beeb is likewise filled with journalists uch as Ron Liddle who aggressively question religion.
Where I differ is I'm not an atheist. I'm an agnostic. I have no axe to grind against Christianity or Islam except where it's imposed by force, taught exclusively in schools as a doctrine or when it extends beyond the borders of personal belief.

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"Everybody has a philosophy. However, what philosophy you have is a matter of choice, and most people don't make a conscious choice with regard to what philosophy they accept."