Alcohol prohibition for teenage Americans

Carrera

"third, mind your own dayumm business Carrera."

If a moderator asked me to refrain, I'd be happy to do so. As it stands, thus far, everyone is entitled to challenge my views.

"you have repeatedly shown that you have very little, if any real cultural knowledge of our country."

You probably arrived at that conclusion due to the titles of some of my threads that really reflected a bit of hidden humour. There are times I think some folks should be less touchy, simply join in a free debate and maybe do so with a sense of humour?
I do know something about what's going on in the U.S.A. as we have a good B.B.C. service over here and I also try to watch A.B.C. News and read the papers.

"blame it on the "crazy religious americans" and b: make broad generalizations abour our country and our patterns of behavior."

My opinion is this: There has been a huge change within the U.S. of late. I believe seventies America was far better, more balanced and rational than the America of today. People such as David Soul will doubtless agree. The issue I take isn't with Americans as a whole (or even Christian Americans). The issue I take is with the so-called "Biblical Elite" who slowly and surely are seeping into politics with an accompanying disregard for the most basic human rights.
Harsh words, perhaps? However, I'm alone. President Putin repeatedly warned of the current disregard for international law within your Government and was echoed by Michael Gorbachev (who when all said and done knocked down the Berlin Wall).
Let's get the facts straight, everybody. This woman was facing eight years incarceration for holding a birthday party where some alcohol was supplied in a private household. To be frank, this is as bad as any case I heard in the USSR (a country I once lived in). It's an absolute outrage. I don't see how in this world Bush can contemplate lecturing China and Russia over human rights when he's running what's tantamount to a dictatorship. This is fascism pure and simple.

"at least i hope that's why you seem not to have a problem with kids sleeping around and drinking when they are teens."

I don't have a problem with it. Myself I got drunk when I was 14 years old. As for sex, it's a natural biological function. We're wired up for it and abstaining has only led to abuse of minors by frustrated clerics.

"second, it doesn't matter if it's in her own home."

Nobody argued it was right for the mother to lie to the other parents. A fine and warning would have been the normal response so police can get on dealing with gangs and real criminals. As it is, nobody was drinking and driving. They used this as an excuse to storm the house because, no doubt , they feared the teens were straying from God and leaving the narrow path. I'll bet half the authorities involved attended a Biblical parenting course.


second, it doesn't matter if it's in her own home. that argument can really only be used if you do things that only affect you or your family. like watching porn, sleeping with your brother, smoking pot, bathing in jello, etc. when you do something that affects another person's child, then you lose the right to claim it your business what happens inside your home.

third, mind your own dayumm business Carrera. you have repeatedly shown that you have very little, if any real cultural knowledge of our country. you point to every anomaly that catches your interest and a: blame it on the "crazy religious americans" and b: make broad generalizations abour our country and our patterns of behavior. and yes, it does make a difference that you don't have kids. at least i hope that's why you seem not to have a problem with kids sleeping around and drinking when they are teens. your ideas of how you think we should raise our children are either born out of ignorance or sheer idiocy. and i'm hoping the former.

lastly, i don't know if you've noticed but we aren't a society that does moderation very well. we don't eat, spend, live, drink, etc. in moderation. that's probably our biggest fault. because of that, our teens are far less likely to be of the mindset where they can have a beer or a glass of wine and say no to the next one like a responsible adult. blame it on advertising, hollywood, etc. it's just the way it is. [/QUOTE]

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"Everybody has a philosophy. However, what philosophy you have is a matter of choice, and most people don't make a conscious choice with regard to what philosophy they accept."

limerickman

I referred to Virginia in my post....not West Virginia.

JHuskey mistakenly said that I referred to West Virginia.




Perhaps.

I would still contend that the facts of the case and the resultant sentence were disproportionate.
But we'll just ahev to agree, to disagree.





I think you've put a very salient point here.

Few societies are good at moderation and perhaps the puritanical laws of Virginia were enacted because of this inability to exercise moderation.
We have the same problem here - teens drinking far too much and not being prepared to do things in moderation.

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.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

cheapie

heh. I KNOW! virginia is the more cultured/moneyed state. west virginia is the country of coal mines, extreme poverty, and local hicks.




actually we can agree to agree. i also think 2 years is too long. but i had a problem with the idea that what happens in one's home is not anyone else's business when you involve minor children that aren't yours. that's all.



i wouldn't exactly call making the legal drinking age 21 puritanical. and it's not just a virginia law, it's that way in virtually every state.

limerickman

I specified Virginia's law - simple because this case took place in Virginia.

21 being the legal age drinking limit is puritanical, regardless of which state this age limit is enforced.
It's puritanical in my opinion.

At 18 people can vote - but they're not allowed to drink?
At 18 people can go off to fight a war - but they're not allowed to drink?

__________________
.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

jhuskey

18 is the age of majority in Tennessee but not 16. I still take exception to saying everyone in W. VA. is a hick and I have never lived there nor have relatives there.
They have citys, colleges etc.
It's like saying all Muslums are terrorists.
People vary in every area and I will give them the benefit and meet them all before I pass judgement.

Of course I know that all residents of the County of Meat drink beer 23 hours a day and sleep one.

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Sobriety is over rated!

limerickman

Point taken.

I do think that the judge was playing to the gallery in that case.

__________________
.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

jhuskey

I can't say since I was not in the courtroom and the media reports what is convenient to make the best story.
Attorneys are very effective at times, as well I know.I have to deal with them almost daily.
"These are not the Droids that you are looking for".

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Sobriety is over rated!

wolfix

The law in America to drink at the age of 18 went into effect 4 days after my 18th birthday [1974]...... So I was right there when 18 year olds drank. I remember drinking and driving. The sad thing is that I remember driving/drinking and the next day not knowing how I got home.
From 2001-2006 I ran a pub that catered to young university drinkers. We did not serve minors, but I know we did at times. The fake ID thing is really good.
I watched young people drink 6 nights a week for years on end. I was in an 2 block area with about 9 bars, and most of them looked the other way for underage drinkers. We were a high volume bar in a high volume area. I saw my share of drunken youth. And even though I tried to run a responsible bar, I also contributed to the problem in a small way.

Young people [under 21] are not responsible to drink. I personally had to deal with young people who passed out with vomit in their throats choking.
[ These were underage drinkers that drank in other bars and wandered into our bar. It was common to have this happen, but I had to deal with the ones that passed out in my bar] ]
At least 3 times over the years the paramedics told me that if we would not have acted quickly, who knows what the outcome was.
I know many young people who can handle it. But far too many cannot. I think the difference between countries where the young drink responsibly and here is that drinking here is associated with the fast life. Drinking is heavily commercialized and promoted.

My main concern is driving. I can't comment on other countries, but American underage drinkers drive to most places. And that is dangerous to themselves and others.

And something I'm an expert on is this...... you cannot reason with a drunk.

A parent who allows underage drinking in their home for other peoples children are acting in a total irresposible way. They are assuming they know best for other peoples children. But 2 years seems to be a rather stiff penalty. There has to be other factors in this case we are hearing about.
Allowing your own children to drink in your own home moderatly is a complete other situation.

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"I rule my world with a cellphone."

cheapie

i just assumed you confused virginia with west virginia because of the hick comment. if that's not the case, then i apologize.

Scotty_Dog

These comments have nothing to do with the actual topic of 15 and 16 year olds being allowed to illegally consume alcohol, but I whole heartedly agree with your sentiment.

I honestly feel as if the harsh sentence was based on:

1) Illegally provided other people's children alcohol
2) Lied to the other children's parents about the alcohol
3) Attempted to get the children to lie to the police

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"There is alot of blather here that does not float the hooey barge." boudreaux 11/22/2005

ndbiker

I believe the states are the ones that determine the legal drinking age. The reason most states have 21 as a drinking age is that the Federal government will withhold highway funds from states that don't adhere to 21 as the drinking age. At 18 people can vote and fight a war but they also die in drunk driving accidents at a higher rate than those over 21. I seem to remember reading that the number one cause of death for those between 16 and 21 is automobile accidents involving alcohol, thus the reason for withholding highway funds. It is perfectly legal for those under 21 to drink if their parents provide the alcohol and are present when it is consumed (I am not sure how this applies to restaurants). So we are giving parents a chance to supervise their children in the consumption of alcohol. Teenagers tend to lack reasoning skills, and driving experience, and alcohol depresses both. I am not anti-alcohol. I brew my own beer and make my own wine and my kids help me in the bottling process. While I don't know all the details of the Virginia story I think the parents should have understood the consequenses of providing alcohol to minors that were not their children. At face value the penalty may seem a bit stiff but as a rule I don't disagree with the law as it stands. I do have a problem with extortion by the federal government though. I think the states should have the decision as to age of consent without the strong arming by the US government.

limerickman

Thanks.

No problem.

__________________
.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

Carrera

All the arguments raised thus far are dealt with in the article by Matt Frei. This is the article that caused some shock in Europe and the U.K. and it gets to the core of this particular case:

"It is not just about the evils and perils of booze.
It is about the intrusion of civic America into the lives of its citizens. "(Matt Frei)
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"Male inmates wear black and grey stripes. Women prisoners wear red. The trustees, the prison elite who qualify for special privileges like more free time and longer visiting hours, wear Guantanamo Bay orange. Elisa Kelly wears red. This is hardly surprising. She has only spent two days in jail and she still does not know her way roundFor instance, she did not know that inmates can create a mobile phone account with a designated user, necessary because jails only allow collect calls.
She was not sure about the registration process, without which she cannot receive her two visitors every month for half an hour. But what Elisa Kelly does know is that she will be here for two-and-a-quarter years.
You might argue that Elisa Kelly, who shares her cell with nine other inmates, is lucky, because her original sentence of eight years was slashed to 27 months after a lengthy and costly appeals process which finally hit a dead end when the US Supreme Court refused to hear her case.
But none of that matters to Elisa Kelly, who barely rises above 5ft 3in (1.62m), wears her blonde hair in a bun and has the muscular stature of a former physical education school teacher.
Tears Because, even in the presence of Ms Rush, silently and sympathetically listening to our interview, Elisa Kelly vents her anger and lets the tears flow.
"It's absurd. It's an injustice," she told me with red eyes that matched her uniform.
"My boys don't just think I'm a good mother. They think I'm the best mother!"
I look over to Ms Rush, fiddling with a large bunch of bronze keys as if they were prayer beads.
She shrugs, smiles, and looks down at the grey carpet.
Elisa's crime was to hold a birthday party for her 16-year-old son Ryan and serve his friends beer. As a precaution, she and her ex-husband, who is serving 30 days for bringing the alcohol onto the property, made sure that none of the kids would be able to drive home.
As they arrived at their 6000ft suburban mansion on the outskirts of Earlysville, she confiscated their car keys, put them in a bucket, barricaded the drive with her Hummer and told them to have a good time.
They were all expecting to have a sleep over and, since Elisa knew most of the kids because she had taught them at school, she did not think it was necessary to warn their parents that beer would be consumed. At about 10pm the din of music and boys' voices was drowned out by police sirens.
Some 30 officers with guard dogs swooped on the red-brick house in Bleak House Road.
Someone shouted "cops!" and many of the boys dispersed into the surrounding forest.
Everyone was caught. The young guests were breathalysed and about half tested positive.
Elisa and her husband were immediately handcuffed and led away to jail.
They both pleaded guilty.
In Virginia, like in much of the US, you can drive when you are 15, die in the army at 17 and buy a gun at 18.
But you cannot let beer or wine pass your lips legally until you are 21.
On that night in 2003 Elisa knew that she was breaking the law but since she was doing so at home, she did not think that anybody would know - or care, for that matter. She was wrong. And now, through sobs and tears, she explains how she made a silly mistake but how her remorse is trumped by her anger at the punishment.
Selective Puritanism
The bizarre and selective Puritanism of the US is as old as the nation.
In Washington DC, a city forever vying for the title of murder capital of the US, liquor stores are closed on Sunday.
The same is true in Virginia, Wyoming and 32 other states.
It is not just about the evils and perils of booze.
It is about the intrusion of civic America into the lives of its citizens.
It is the sober side of the American dream that will keep Elisa Kelly awake at night in her crowded cell at Albemarle jail on the lush outskirts of Charlottesville."









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__________________
"Everybody has a philosophy. However, what philosophy you have is a matter of choice, and most people don't make a conscious choice with regard to what philosophy they accept."

Carrera

Lim, your point about the car keys is backed up by the article above. Here is what she did - which strikes me as totally acceptable:

"As they arrived at their 6000ft suburban mansion on the outskirts of Earlysville, she confiscated their car keys, put them in a bucket, barricaded the drive with her Hummer and told them to have a good time."

I hate to sound so harsh and confrontational but to storm a private household and attempt to jail an innocent woman for 8 years for serving a bit of alcohol at a birthday party is a major violation of liberty and fundamental rights.
I think this lady should write a letter to Putin so he can bring her case up publically next time Bush lectures Russia and China on "freedom and democracy".

__________________
"Everybody has a philosophy. However, what philosophy you have is a matter of choice, and most people don't make a conscious choice with regard to what philosophy they accept."