Alcohol prohibition for teenage Americans

wolfix

I just think it's wrong to allow one set of parents philosphy to influence another set of parents children, in something as important as drinking, spirituality, and other major matters.
In my house with my childen we approched drinking/cannibis as this..
It's not evil
it's illegal
"Moderation"
"not a lifestyle"
"be careful"
.......... At the age of 15 my daughter starting smoking......In about March of that year. In the fall of that year she was in rehab in bad shape. Now , we know it was not the cannibis, but it was the coke.........
It was the boyfriend's parents who introduced her to coke........ Who was to know, they seemed decent........
In this case, the man suffered far worse [and suffer more] then just 2 years in prison.

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"I rule my world with a cellphone."

garyj

I'm sorry to hear about the difficulties your daughter was having. However, based on the outcome I'd not recommend that approch to my children on "drinking/cannibis as this.. It's not evil... it's illegal...Moderation...not a lifestyle...be careful." I have seen better results in children who have been raised in homes who recommended abstinence and talk about the "evils" of adictive substances.

It's a little like putting a YIELD sign at every intersection. Some people would yelld and some people wouldn't. It's safer to put a STOP sign there. Sure, some would run the STOP signs as well, but at least we are letting people know what is safe.

wolfix

I would agree with that, and that is the approach we used in the beginning. But it did not work with this daughter. So I went with the next thing after I discovered she was smoking......
And children are different. With this child she was hell on wheels...... Her younger sister who I was more open with, or had to be, turned out to be the exact opposite of her sister.

But after the rehab she turned to me instead of her mother for advice. Her mother had this "I am a virgin approach to all types of problems" to child raising. But living in the town we did it was no secret I too was a hell raiser when I was young.

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"I rule my world with a cellphone."

Carrera

"I would feel the same way if they had a party and did a religious revival without contacting the parents

Logic points towards the following deduction: (1)Some parents made an official complaint (possibly not all of them). (2) The lady who held the party obviously had a good relationship with all the teens who were invited, possibly because she'd worked as a teacher.
Therefore, this seems like a case of repressed kids who wanted to simply enjoy themselves and were maybe fed up of their parents forcing religion on them and denying them any fun. I'll bet those kids were dragged to church every Sunday and bored silly.
I figure the lady was sympathetic but, to my mind, she acted appropriately by making sure nobody was going to drive.
Now, Wolfix, answer me one simple question and please give it careful consideration: Would you seriously dismiss the prospect of your own kids being chased into nearby woods by dogs or being handcuffed? I mean, assault?
I saw the lady on T.V. and it seemed to me she was far more upset over the teens than her own predicament since she claims dogs were set on them.
All I can say is if my own friends or family were assaulted in this manner over a bit of shandy at a private party, I'd be more than angry. I'd be ballistic.
As for the drinking at 21, I think it's absurd. The irony is if Jesus himself was attending the party, he'd more than likely have topped up the alcohol supply by converting tap water and back in those bibilical times it was quite common even for children to drink wine at parties. According to custom, they mixed it in jugs full of water.

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"Everybody has a philosophy. However, what philosophy you have is a matter of choice, and most people don't make a conscious choice with regard to what philosophy they accept."

Carrera

I draw the line at drugs. Cocaine was the ruin of Pantani and Jose Maria Jimenez. Dope is far less dangerous but prolonged use can cause brain damage.
Also, steroids are far more dangerous than people originally assumed. I keep hearing cases of cardiovascular disease caused by prolonged steroid use.
Of course, alcohol can be dangerous but only if taken to extremes. I tend to stick to guiness and red wine.

__________________
"Everybody has a philosophy. However, what philosophy you have is a matter of choice, and most people don't make a conscious choice with regard to what philosophy they accept."

Carrera

RJ Adams Illinois
"Take the case of Elisa Kelly from Charlottesville, Virginia, who is just beginning a two and a quarter year sentence in the county jail. She’s one of the lucky ones. After a lengthy appeals process her sentence was cut from the EIGHT YEARS originally imposed.
Elisa Kelly’s crime was to serve beer in her own home, to the sixteen year old guests at her son’s birthday party.
Was she foolish?
Probably.
Is she a criminal?
No.
Does she deserve to be incarcerated for one day, let alone twenty-seven months?
Not in a million years.
The goody-goody, prim and proper, moralistic, hypocritical, inhumane officials of Charlottesville, Virginia, are a bunch of pompous, dim-witted ass-holes more deserving of jail-time than Elisa Kelly.
Much could be written on this matter, but it already has been and by a far more accomplished writer than yours truly. The BBC’s Matt Frei has an article about Elisa Kelly on the BBC website, for all the world to read - and judge American justice. I recommend it as an eye-opener to the narrow-mindedness and duplicity of those responsible for Virginia’s state laws."

__________________
"Everybody has a philosophy. However, what philosophy you have is a matter of choice, and most people don't make a conscious choice with regard to what philosophy they accept."

Hypnospin

this black 'n red cocktail you stick to has yet to catch on stateside...


you mention alcohol and drugs as if two seperate entities, when in reality alcohol, a mind altering chemical, is by definition a drug.

is it perhaps more a distinction of societal norms than relative
potential for substance abuse that seperates the two?

__________________
"The dogmas of the quiet past are inadequate to the stormy present...As our case is new, so must we think anew and act anew"
Abraham Lincoln, in his address to congress dec. 1st, 1861

Carrera

Firstly, I do sympathise with Wolfix's troubles which can happen to ant parent (bad influences from other kids). I hope all of this works out in the end and my position is I dislike drugs.
Alcohol can ruin families and even kill but I'm not endorsing binge drinking. I think this was simply a house party with a bit of beer flowing. I very much doubt there were kids throwing up in the house or having sex.
Alcohol isn't as addictive as nicotine or narcotics unless you happen to have an inability to cope without alcohol (i.e. an alcoholic).

__________________
"Everybody has a philosophy. However, what philosophy you have is a matter of choice, and most people don't make a conscious choice with regard to what philosophy they accept."

wolfix

Cannibis vs alcohol....... To me it is the same thing. But alcohol is treated differently in the US then cannibis. So a person has to treat it differently fom a legal aspect and the way you approach your childen with the subject. I have always said that you have to deal with the justice system on their rules, not the way "it should be." "The way it should be" made Walt Disney a lot of cash, but it lacks of reality..... Hell, if we listened to Thumper and his sage advice.."If you can't say something nice, don't say nothing at all," we would have a very , very boring forum......

And I always avoided people who was out to prove that they thought the justice system was wrong and got stupid in doing so. Those were what we called "future felons" when I lived in Truckee, California back in the 70's. The area was full of trust fund babies who thought daddies money would keep them safe. They were dangerous mother......'ers. I stayed clear of their parties. They had great party favors, but they wanted the world to know it too.......
I had to approach my children with a different approach that most parents do. My children knew I was "possibly" a smoker back in the day. I had a minor episode that involved illegal substances back then that made the paper and got the state police involved. It's a little hard to pretend to your children you were not a wild child when you were young when you created the "family scandal" of the century.
Back to the thread ........
This lady is just irresponsible. 16 year old children are not mature enough to drink. The story of the dogs chasing the children through the woods is just reflecting the stupidity of the women's actions away from her.

If you think 16 year olds were sitting around the party with a cocktail telling engaging stories , you are dreaming.

It still comes back to the idea that she engaged other peoples children in a illegal act without parents consent. She had no right to do that.
This is not a story about a few beers for underage children. This is not a story about the "American Injustice System." It is all about a individual parent assuming she knew better what was good for other peoples children.

America has many problems....... But one of the bigger ones has to do with personal resposibility of parents to raise their children correctly. We know that America's parents are not taking care of business. Let's not get into the "family value thing", but the family is important to a well raised child. Our country is headed into a direction that is wrong. We are replacing the parents role with "government approved values." Our government can't even get their shit together good enough to win a little fistfight over in the Gulf. But we want to allow the government to tell us what our children need???


Then we have the ladies punishment...... 2 years??? If she serves the full 2 years then I believe that is excessive. But she won't..... in the US 2 years means 2 months...... That is not excessive.

If she walked into the party and discovered drinking was happening, and then simply dealt with it by taking the keys and doing what she did, it would be different. But she planned it.

I'm going out for a ride...........

__________________
"I rule my world with a cellphone."

Carrera

"But we want to allow the government to tell us what our children need??? "

That's my point. Where the State should have intervened, in my view, is over the family who were beating their kids with a switch in the name of Biblical parenting. Or the guy standing in the street selling his paddles, after demonstrating how to cause the most pain through swats.
Of course, the trouble with fundamentalists is they don't "interpret" religion but take it all at face value. Literally. Now I hear the original Hebrew for "spare the rod and spoil the child" was widely misinterpreted by fundamentalists since the Hebrew word for "rod" actually meant a hooked shepherd's staff. And according to Hebrew scholarship, the said hooked staff was a symbol of guidance and direction, not of violence.

"And I always avoided people who was out to prove that they thought the justice system was wrong and got stupid in doing so."

Personally, I think that law needs changing ASAP. I certainly oppose people roaming the streets in a drunken stupor after football matches, shouting and causing mayhem. Even so, a bit of alcohol provided at home for a bunch of 16 year olds doesn't concern me as I'm assuming the lady question wasn't allowing this to go to extremes. My bet is they all got a bit merry and a bit noisy which is part of growing up. Surely the police have better things to do and more serious crimes to solve?

"It still comes back to the idea that she engaged other peoples children in a illegal act without parents consent. She had no right to do that."

This is where it gets very murky indeed. These kids were going to stay the night as a group so the parents must have known that much at least. I figure some of the parents would have known there would be a party, possibly with some alcohol but they evidently trusted the lady in question to keep an eye on things. Other parents must have taken a totally different view. Yes, she should have covered herself by contacting all the parents beforehand which is where she screwed up.

Still, I maintain that in France and Spain, youngsters start drinking at a very early age yet drunkeness outside of fiestas is rare. Europeans don't generally have an alcohol problem although here in the U.K. the situation has become problematic.

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"Everybody has a philosophy. However, what philosophy you have is a matter of choice, and most people don't make a conscious choice with regard to what philosophy they accept."

wolfix

Alcohol in America is a problem with youth. Alcohol in America is treated differently then in France/Spain for adults too. I imagine those youths grew up with wine at the table. That's not common here in the states.
A bigger issue that ties into differences in our culture and Europes is in the public transport system. In Europe you can over indulge and still get home. Not so in America where the youth drive everywhere.
Plus we are a capitolist system that promotes everything. So drinking is glorified by the advertisers influencing the youth in America. And the youth buy into it. Binge drinking is a issue on America's campus's.
But in Russia drinking is a problem...... At least I am guessing it is. But in Russia it is a problem that does not raise it's head like a drunk driving accident that kills a car load of children. And drinking is a disposable income thing too among the youth. And American children have that .

__________________
"I rule my world with a cellphone."

ndbiker

Carrerra mentioned that France and Spain have less of an alcohol problem than other countries and I cannot speak to that specifically, however, it is my opinion that cultures which associate alcohol consumption with food rather than with socializing will have less of a problem with misuse of alcohol. Cultures that come to mind are France, Spain, Italy and Greece. When consuming alcohol with food you typically limit your time drinking to your time eating (sometimes preparing the food), drink more slowly as you're taking time to eat and talk, and food also slows down the absorbtion of alcohol to the blood stream therefore most people drink less and get less drunk as they are eating.

If you drink to socialize several things happen. Alcohol first lowers your inhibitions (making you think you are more clever than you are), it then affects judgement, motor skills, etc.. Since you typically eat less and drink more quickly when you are at a party the alcohol is absorbed more quickly and part of impaired judgement is losing the ability to determine when you have had enough. Combine the above affects with youth (already judgement challenged) and you have a recipe for alcohol abuse and binge drinking, other drug use and behavior one would otherwise not indulge in (such as drunk driving).

In a perfect world where people consume responsibley I would agree with Carreras assessment that the laws are unjust although I would argue where they come from. More of our young men and woman (under 21) die due to automobile accidents involving underage drinking in one year than have died in all of our military conflicts in the last decade. A major proponent of anti drinking laws in the US is Mothers Against Drunk Driving (MADD). They have much more affect on our drinking laws than fundamentalist Christians. There are still isolated counties primarily in the south which are dry but they are relics from a time when churches really did have influence on the subject (remember prohibition). Again, localities have the ultimate say on laws regarding alcohol, the federal government, largely due to lobbying by groups like MADD, influence these laws by the distribution of highway funds.

limerickman

If it's any consolation, youngsters here drink far in excess also.
Binge drinking, "girls night out", "boys night out" : call it what you will.
It's an epidemic here also.
The kids here have literally too much disposable income and they feel that they have the right to go out and get pissed : so much so that they drink themselves in to oblivion.

I know when I was a kid it was different : we were compelled to play sport, get involved in activities in the community etc.
We had little or no disposable income.
Jobs were not plentiful : third level education was hard sought.

These days youngsters can pick and choose jobs : third level education is available to all.
I'm not saying that life was better in my day - in some respects it was.

Hope everything works out for you with your daughter, Wolf.

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.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.