Armstrong moderated Presidential campaign forum

Bro Deal

You are more idealistic than me. I don't think most of the big problems are solvable. Not necessarily because there is no solution, but because the different sides of a issue work to prevent a reasonable solution.

I also don't agree that the problems are simpler than problems in science and engineering. You cannot reduce social problems to numbers and prove that one solution is better than another. Instead things get reduced to the moral priorities and self-interests of different factions.

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"You are like the wind and I like the lion. You form the tempest. The sand stings my eyes and the ground is parched. I roar in defiance but you do not hear. But between us there is a difference. I, like the lion, must remain in my place. While you like the wind will never know yours." -- Mulay Hamid El Raisuli, Lord of the Riff, Sultan to the Berbers, Last of the Barbary Pirates

El Loto

I live in the same area of the UK as MountainPro and there are no NHS dentists as they have all become private.

nns1400

Dude, did you just respond to me...in your underwear? My mom was right about the internet!

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This stuff is just crap...Hitchy

nns1400

Well, he said somewhere that he could see a private dentist in a few days or wait 18 months for an NHS dentist. Maybe someone bumped a really old thread or something.

Or maybe you're wrong?

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This stuff is just crap...Hitchy

nns1400

We're not bigots...we hate everyone!

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This stuff is just crap...Hitchy

nns1400

And if you don't agree, they'll be happy to shoot you.

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This stuff is just crap...Hitchy

El Loto

Yes I'm sure that queuing outside a dentist for hours just to attempt to register with them is lying.

nns1400

BTW, I was referring to ambulance chasing John Edwards because of statements HE MADE about stem-cell research and he said something like if he and Kerry were elected, people WOULD get out of their wheelchairs and walk again. Too much time in the courtroom, too many contributions from trial lawyers, and if you think someone like him with that kind of support would IMPROVE the healthcare sitch then you are crazy. That is not debased, that is true.

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This stuff is just crap...Hitchy

nns1400

This concerns me...does this mean everything people say on the internet might not be true? Is Helmut not really a pro wrestler?!

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This stuff is just crap...Hitchy

thoughtforfood

Please don't take this quipish at all, but I know it is more expensive for someone without healthcare because the bill for any given medical procedure will far outweigh any tax levied against them.

For those with healthcare, and lets say a $500 deductable, that too is an easy calculation because per percentage of that person's tax bill, that is a fairly sizable chunk, and if you divide their tax into the amount that goes to any given program, it is a tiny percentage for each given government program.

I also think that in the US, when we say that government is inept at _________, sometimes we are right, and sometimes we are not. Government does many things well, and many things not so well. And we are talking about a big program, which seems to be the most difficult for government to run efficiently. Many times the inefficiency is due to corruption, etc, which is also a part of private enterprise.

Please do not misread what I am saying. I believe that the welfare programs enacted in the 60's were one of the biggest mistakes ever made by our government. I am not a fan of the idea that government should engineer a great society. I simply believe that some things are worth allowing our government to provide to more people than a free market will bear.

I also believe that something like socialized medicine is a warranted counterbalance to the welfare provided to corporations. Corporations have more power and influence than the poor, and in the real world, that is only logical and necessary. However, our country WAS founded with protections for the minority and powerless in mind, and sometimes, government needs to provide to those without great influence because of that moral basis inherent in the fouding of our country. It is an American value, contrary to those who claim otherwise.

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Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.
-- Albert Einstein

Bro Deal

It is hard to believe that it could cost more.

Here is the percent of GDP spent on healthcare for various countries:


The numbers are a little different than what I put down from memory in my post above, but the U.S. is spending between 50% and 100% more on healthcare, and for that money we get much worse results. The numbers don't lie. The current system is a failure which serves to enrich those in the healthcare industry while providing shoddier care than most industrial countries.

I simply don't have faith in free markets like I used to. I am all for them when they work, but most laissez faire capitalists treat free markets as a religion. They don't believe in market failures or externalities. Those are heresies that cannot exist. Meanwhile in the real world, market failures are all around us. The current and biggest one is the corruption that has gone on in the housing market.

I think that it is very common for the short term interests of most parties in a market to act as an incentive to do the wrong thing. As long as most parties get to wet their beak then everyone is happy until the whole corrupt structure tumbles down. If a free market does not work then it should be the job of the government to step in and either fix the system or provide the service itself. I think the current healthcare system falls into that category.

Aside from the economic issues, I also lean toward TFF's view that certain services should be provided in a civilized society. It improves society as a whole.

__________________
"You are like the wind and I like the lion. You form the tempest. The sand stings my eyes and the ground is parched. I roar in defiance but you do not hear. But between us there is a difference. I, like the lion, must remain in my place. While you like the wind will never know yours." -- Mulay Hamid El Raisuli, Lord of the Riff, Sultan to the Berbers, Last of the Barbary Pirates

nns1400

Name something the government does well.

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This stuff is just crap...Hitchy

thoughtforfood

Incredibly well written and thoughtful. You clearly illustrate what I took 3000 more words to write, and lets not even get into the bandwidth I chewed up.

__________________
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.
-- Albert Einstein

thoughtforfood

Regulate the food you eat.

__________________
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.
-- Albert Einstein