What do U think of my coach's advice?

jsirabella

If you have been hanging around these boards as of late you know I have really started getting into my power meter for the last two months and started to do the increase threshold power which for me is now 250 ftp.

I have now done my second race since the power training...

It was a strange race as I did much better overall from my first especially my pacing but I did not stay with the pack as long as last week and was never in the front pulling. But funny I felt this was my strongest finish. Let me explain:

The winning rider finished at a little below 41 minutes the 5 laps, 17 miles. According to my math that was about 25 miles per hour average and my CP files says I did average a little over 21 miles per hour. Keep in mind I did this average with really no help from a pack. The pack was really large at the start and I pretty much was only with them for about 1 lap. I finished the last 4 with another guy who was just on my rear wheel the whole time. Funny thing though finished in the top half of the entire field because there was a big blow up on the first lap where about 1/3 or more of the riders wiped out when someone tried to sprint from the middle of the pack. He was not very smart.

It is that first lap that makes no sense to me...the way these riders are handling it. I will not be able to stay with them unless I just go nuts which will lead to an early blow up. The first lap I did average about 23 miles per hour and np of 283 and average watts at 238. I am riding at or above my threshold so until I get my ftp at 300 or more I will have trouble with this track and the software says it as it still rates me as untrained except in my 5 min and my ft right on the border. My max watts at any time is in the 500 range and I got to get that anerobic higher for atleast 1 minute to deal with the crazy start.

When I sent my CP file to the coach his comment was

John, you have to do more VO2 intervals to teach your body to deal with higher intensity in a short period and recover fast to able to deal with the tempo and intensity changesduring the races. You have no problem with the watts/kg, base on what I saw in your race file!

I feel that he is correct but I if I continue to focus on the aerobic end and get my ftp higher, the rest should fall into place and than focus on the anerobic numbers. I also feel that the 53 on this track is tough to spin above 110 on that track as it is decieving that there is quite a bit of incline but not sharp just constant and gradual and than gradual decline. I was thinking of switching out my 35 with something slightly bigger like a 42 or so and see how I would perform on the track.

Well guys what do you think and the advice?? Also as an FYI based upon that race it was a 2.9 which was an all time high since beginning power training.

-Js

daveryanwyoming

He's right in terms of the short term goal of hanging in these races. I think I pointed this out a month or more ago. Ideally you would have worked last winter and early spring to build a big aerobic base and you'd be building the high end of your aerobic capabilities(VO2 Max) and your anaerobic tolerance on top of that base. But you started mid season so you're playing a catch up game to folks with a head start in training. Short term a VO2 Max and even L6(anaerobic tolerance) focus might help but long term you'll do better to build that aerobic base before jumping in to the short hard efforts.

I don't know anything about the course or how the peloton rode that first fast lap, but your AP and NP were quite different during that period. IOW you had a VI of ~1.19 which is pretty high for a road race(not too high for a crit with a lot of sharp turns). Did the course have a lot of sharp bends or short sprinter's hills or is it possible you were riding near the rear and suffered from a lot of accordian effect and excessive braking followed by jumps to cover the gaps? That sort of stuff really drives up your NP and makes you burn a lot of matches just to hang on. If so, riding a bit further forward and getting comfortable enough with pack riding to stay off your brakes and find smooth riders to follow will pay off big time.
Raising your FTP is still your best bet but once you've brought that up a bit you'll want to work on the higher systems like VO2 Max and Anaerobic Tolerance. Again it depends on how much longer your road season lasts out there. Road racing is wrapped up for the season here so I'm back to winter base building which won't include any L5 or L6 work for several months. If you have a bunch more races to do you might work in a day a week of 3 to 5 minute L5 intervals but frankly I'd still suggest riding out this season for experience and focusing on laying a solid groundwork for next spring.

Quote:

...Also as an FYI based upon that race it was a 2.9 which was an all time high since beginning power training.

Sorry, 2.9 what? 'don't know what you're referring to here is it W/Kg AP for the entire race?

You're probably getting tired of hearing it, but you're paying big dues with each of these races. We've all done it and it can be frustrating but there aren't a lot of shortcuts to gaining the sort of experience you're getting in these races. Keep working the fitness side of the equation during training, but see if you can work on the pack riding skills as well. I suspect you're not riding as efficiently as possible either through positioning in the field, excessive braking, poor gear choices or other things and although we can talk about it a lot there's no substitute for riding with better/faster riders for learning those skills. If you haven't done so, read Thomas Prehn's book: http://www.amazon.com/Racing-Tactic...n/dp/1931382301 there's a lot of good advice in there, but reading it won't be enough you've got to practice what he talks about in group rides and races.

Keep up the good work,
Dave

jsirabella

Hi Dave,

I agree that my coach is correct for the short term also but he seems to be telling me that my power output is enough to deal with these cat 5 races. Do you agree? I do not really agree with it and lean more told your assessment that I need to focus on the long term and building the ftp. The race season here is pretty much coming to a close but I am in catch up and want to catch in as many as I can before it really does close down.

As for the race course, it is the same course I did last week where I performed very well in the first two laps and even pulled. The course is described as a road race but most riders call it a crit. It is a strange hybrid where you do not have any steep hills or any steep descents but you are constantly either ascending or descending during the race. The one big hill is long and deceptive where you keep thinking it is over but still has a little more to go. I am not sure if I would call the turns sharp but they can be. The race starts with that hill and that is where you are battling for position and can easily get blown off the pack. Because this is not my local course I am just starting to really get a feel for it now.

You are probably correct about not using the right gear and braking too much but my goal this time was pacing and not using the brakes. My pacing was better and I did not use the brakes like the last time. I still feel I did not ride in the drops enough and not enough control on the turns. I am thinking of practicing this course next saturday before the race! I am finding now that the key for control to me is holding the handlebars tight with my hands but stay loose on the arms. I find I go faster when I hold the bars tighter and feel more control yet I need to stay loose in the arms.

I am really hoping that these races will get me to ride better in packs as doing it in the park is difficult as it is really just a hammerfest. I would like to ride in a more cohesive pack that actually would work together but I feel the races can help me with that.

The 2.9 does refer to AP/Weigth as the CP software shows you for the ride. I will be ordwering the book right away but like you said it is hard unless you find packs to ride with.

There are more races next week and I will be doing atleast one of them. There is a race on Sat a little further away but only 10 miles long(??) which they are really calling a crit. The other two races are one in my home field (central park) or also on sunday another race in prospect park (my usual place) but a new twist with eight laps...a bit longer (9 miles longer).

I am not sure which to do but leaning towards the prospect park 8 lap race as this seems to be my race and track to conquer.

I started the 250 increase threshold hunter download course and honestly finding a litttle easy for the first week but sure it will increase in toughness over the next 7 weeks.

On a side note what would a L5 or L6 workout be for me with a ftp of 250?

-Js

Alex Simmons

You are downloading training programmes from Training Peaks.
So I'm a little confused - what does your coach do?

In any case, you should discuss your concerns with your coach and have him explain how to best work on meeting your goals.

Nothing wrong with seeking the opinions of others here but we don't have the detail that your coach has (or should have) about you.

The race tactics mentioned are pretty common for shorter road races/crits in lower divisions - lots of early attacks and high pace before everyone calms down. Unfortunately there's no substitute for condition to meet the demands thrown at you. I know with race craft I can get away with not being as fit but ultimately it makes racing life tough!

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jsirabella

Hi Alex,

Like in business, the same can be said in life, "it all comes down to timing and being in the right place at the right time".

I admit I feel a little guilty about what I am doing but the real short version comes down to the coach being away right before he gave me a power meter and dave and the other folks here putting me on a new course.

When he comes back I am sure we will get on some kind of track but I know his style and lifestyle, he will be busy alot. Right now I am experimenting and want to see what works best for me. I am thinking with his schedule, a combination of the workouts downloaded with his advice and fine tuning may be the key. The other part like you say...other opinions can not hurt. Right now the opinions have been really good so why fight with something that is working.

I will keep experimenting until I find what works...maybe one day I can use one of you guys as my coach.

It seems you hit it on the head with the way the race is and I agree I rather think long term. Just makes the short term a little harder...

-Js

dm69

It appears your coach is right. Vo2 max power and how you recover from it are almost always going to be more important than FTP.

Listen to your coach...You are wasting his time if your following some guy on the internet over him. Your coach will still probably happily take your money however.

Roadie_scum

Except in road racing and mountain biking. Apart from that, spot on. If your event is maxing a VO2 test.

dm69

sarcasm? lol. Where do you race? Do you ever accelerate in your races or is there speed limit on how quick your allowed to go?

Ive never been dropped when going at a FTP power unless its up a rediculously long climb...maybe that means I have a relatively strong FTP compared to my vo2.

Shorter duration power has almost always determined the races I ride in.

acoggan

VO2max sets the upper limit to sustainable power output, but the fraction of VO2max that can be utilized for any period of time can vary significantly between individuals. Moreover, the rate of recovery following high intensity exercise is related to muscular metabolic fitness, not to VO2max per se. It is because of these irrefutable facts that LT is a better predictor of performance in endurance sports than is VO2max.

acoggan

The rate at which you can accelerate is dependent upon your neuromuscular power, not your VO2max. For example, when I was your age I had a VO2max of >80 mL/min/kg, but my ability to accelerate was abysmal (and it still is).



Sounds to me as if the races you compete in either aren't very long, or they aren't very hard (or both).

Eden

I'm going to give you a few tips that have nothing to do with your power meter....
The race sounds like a short circuit/modified crit - you should probably be riding in your drops the entire time - its just safer that way if you are in the pack where you should be. In the drops you'll be more stable, and if you are on the tops you run the risk of hooking handlebars with someone else - nasty! Plus you should always, always corner in your drops - no excuses.

Short races, and especially beginner races always have surges - learn to deal with them or you'll never stay with the pack. I know very strong riders, who can kick my scrawny butt around a TT course, that have a very hard time staying with the pack, mainly because they can't react to the surges and they are afraid of mixing into the pack.

You may be able to hurt more than you think you can. Crits (and it sounds like this race) usually go really hard for the first 10 or 15 minutes and then settle in. If you can make it past that first hard bit, then you get a rest and you stay in. If you find you still blow up even after the pace settles a bit, still try to stay in for the first part of the race. Just when you feel like you are dopping off and you can't stay in any longer - stand up, 10 hard pedal strokes and see if you can stay on - it will hurt, but don't let that make you back off. Do it over and over again and you'll hopefully find that eventually you won't blow up or that you're staying in more and more before you do. I do think what your coach said is spot on - improve your ability to recover and you'll do much better. A couple of minutes anaerobic doesn't sound like much to me.... In a crit I often see 5 - 10 min or more in/above my zone 5 (I still train with HR) that usually result from the intial speed, prime laps and the ramp up to the finish.

I am making a guess that if you are uncomfortable cornering at speed you may not spend much time in the middle of the pack. Learn to be comfortable in the pack - not on the back, not on the front, but in the pack. You'll find that its much easier and you'll get sucked right up that hill at a speed you didn't know you could do. You'll spend less time yo-yoing too, which eats up lots of energy. This will make a big difference to you and its a skill that you can't train by yourself to do. It only really comes with racing unless you can ride in a pack outside of a race, which at least around here you can't - pacelineing helps but is still different.

Be sure you have had enough to eat before the race (preferably 2 to 3 hours before or you may puke!), make sure you are properly hydrated too. If you are having endurance issues you may be running out of ready energy before the race is over....

jsirabella

Thank you all for above for your responses.

I do feel I need to go harder in that first 10-15 minutes. That is what I did two weeks ago and it worked very well for me. The reason two weeks ago why I was blown off the pack was not a blow up in terms of endurance but really more of a reaction to the way I handled the turn, the other riders reacted with yells and I just turned off. I did finish the race but never recovered to the pack. I am still not comfortable in cornering as much as I should be.

This week it was an issue of just not giving enough on the initial hill. I needed to really give more in the first 5-10 minutes. Other issues include stuff like this is not a course I am used to yet while alot of these guys live by it or have been racing it all year. Also as I race more and more I notice my comfort level getting better with just being there at that time and ready to race. I feel a routine building...

I do believe that this year is really just more building and learning but I have to try to win. This is why I still will focus on the building of ftp with the downloaded workout and hoping the races I do this year get me more confidence in the pack. Eden I wanted to thank you for all this advice I am going to use it next week. I believe you and Dave kind of got me pegged in terms of issues like cornering and such.

The workouts I am doing now I can see are starting to do more in the threshold area as tomorrow looks tough and I am looking foward to it. I can see that it will get into the anerobic and VO2 areas later. When my coach gets back I am going to tell him what I want to do as far as training with watts.

I use the term coach as in respect to him as he represents his country for gods sake at races in europe but in terms of the traditional idea of an organized club with workouts and rides not really more just email and spreadsheets. He is too busy and more like a trainer so I feel this combination is going to work well. He was hoping the team he started would kind of take a life of its own and organize themselves.

But I feel a grrove building, it would just be nice to have someone else to fight the battle with in the trenches and not on the computer I think i may have found someone last week though.

-Js

dm69

Yer your probably right. Amazing how you came to that correct conclusion over the net.

By "accelerate" I specifically meant 1-5 minute efforts (sorry for the confusion, not sprinting which is something different again). eg. jumping across a break, hanging in there when someone puts you in the "gutter", short steep hills etc, big attacks in the last few km's of a race...list goes on.

To me these 1-5 minute efforts that get repeated during races seem to fit into the Vo2 max duration whatever that means (you might call it L5, Zone 6...). Especially in short criteriums where the pace is On and Off for most of the race, Imo it has more to do with 1.) being able to put out high vo2 power and 2.) Recover really quickly.

maybe Over the duration of an hour or more these efforts all become one bigger effort and turn into an FTP effort? Is that what your trying to say?

Ftp would no doubt come in handy in nearly every race over 4 minutes especially boring long hcp's or "fun" tt's. But to me shorter duration power has always been the big factor in deciding races...the races I ride in do not have an FTP power limit. I doubt I have ever been dropped when riding at or below FTP.

Thx 4 a reply if it comes

dm69

In relation to the OP having a higher FTP WILL be the biggest help, no doubt. If her FTP is very high then the bursts of acceleration you face in a race wont seem all that bad anyway.

The short term solution would be a block of vo2 work as the coach prescribed as the season is almost coming to an end wherever jsirabella lives. After the season ends the biggest thing jsirabella would need to focus on is building a big aerobic engine then capping it off with vo2 work towards the start of 08 season. Unless you can get to a velodrome over the summer and do some track work.

Road season is morphing into track season for me at the moment...gotta love OZ.