What do U think of my coach's advice?

Originally Posted by dm69

In relation to the OP having a higher FTP WILL be the biggest help, no doubt. If her FTP is very high then the bursts of acceleration you face in a race wont seem all that bad anyway.

The short term solution would be a block of vo2 work as the coach prescribed as the season is almost coming to an end wherever jsirabella lives. After the season ends the biggest thing jsirabella would need to focus on is building a big aerobic engine then capping it off with vo2 work towards the start of 08 season. Unless you can get to a velodrome over the summer and do some track work.

Road season is morphing into track season for me at the moment...gotta love OZ.

Originally Posted by jsirabella

If you have been hanging around these boards as of late you know I have really started getting into my power meter for the last two months and started to do the increase threshold power which for me is now 250 ftp.

I have now done my second race since the power training...

It was a strange race as I did much better overall from my first especially my pacing but I did not stay with the pack as long as last week and was never in the front pulling. But funny I felt this was my strongest finish. Let me explain:

The winning rider finished at a little below 41 minutes the 5 laps, 17 miles. According to my math that was about 25 miles per hour average and my CP files says I did average a little over 21 miles per hour. Keep in mind I did this average with really no help from a pack. The pack was really large at the start and I pretty much was only with them for about 1 lap. I finished the last 4 with another guy who was just on my rear wheel the whole time. Funny thing though finished in the top half of the entire field because there was a big blow up on the first lap where about 1/3 or more of the riders wiped out when someone tried to sprint from the middle of the pack. He was not very smart.

It is that first lap that makes no sense to me...the way these riders are handling it. I will not be able to stay with them unless I just go nuts which will lead to an early blow up. The first lap I did average about 23 miles per hour and np of 283 and average watts at 238. I am riding at or above my threshold so until I get my ftp at 300 or more I will have trouble with this track and the software says it as it still rates me as untrained except in my 5 min and my ft right on the border. My max watts at any time is in the 500 range and I got to get that anerobic higher for atleast 1 minute to deal with the crazy start.

When I sent my CP file to the coach his comment was

John, you have to do more VO2 intervals to teach your body to deal with higher intensity in a short period and recover fast to able to deal with the tempo and intensity changesduring the races. You have no problem with the watts/kg, base on what I saw in your race file!

I feel that he is correct but I if I continue to focus on the aerobic end and get my ftp higher, the rest should fall into place and than focus on the anerobic numbers. I also feel that the 53 on this track is tough to spin above 110 on that track as it is decieving that there is quite a bit of incline but not sharp just constant and gradual and than gradual decline. I was thinking of switching out my 35 with something slightly bigger like a 42 or so and see how I would perform on the track.

Well guys what do you think and the advice?? Also as an FYI based upon that race it was a 2.9 which was an all time high since beginning power training.

-Js

Originally Posted by Urkiola2

Hello Jsirabella,

I haven´t been to this forum in more than 2 years or so....it was in my list of favorites and just entered to check it out.
I have seen your question. I have been working as a medical advisor and physiologist for several pro tour teams as well as a cyclist myself for many years and would like to give you some advice.

1st of all the terms "anaerobic" and "aerobic" are misused today and should not be used since there is no proven state where the body turns from an aerobic sate to an anaerobic state. If there is a change in the body it is a change in substrate utilisation from fat to carbohydrate (CHO). The higher the effort the higher the muscle glucose utilisation and therefore the more lactate will be produced. Lactate is not just the dead end product of anaerobic glycolysis but it is also a very important regulator for intermediate metabolism (although this could take several pages to talk about). I will try to make myself understandable. Lactate is greately dependable on glucolytic (glucose) flux. Therefore, the more glucose utilisation the more lactate is produced. Hence, the important part that you and even Contador need is to oxidize ("washout") that lactate at a faster rate. For that you need to improve your lactate oxidation capacity.

After this small introduction, I will tell you that training exclusively by watts will not fullfill your metabolic needs for improvement. You say that your Power threshold is 250W...There is no such a power threshold, believe me. Actually the word threshold is very subjective since your "power threshold" is not the same for 5 min, than for 15 than for 2h. So that term is very subjective especially when we talk about watts, where there is not much relationship with the metabolic events occuring overtime.

Your numbers should be good for your coach for a given time, but in that race you talked about, in the 1st lap you probably went over your "power threshold". That pretty much means that in that "acceleration" or high pace the peloton put on for the 1st lap, your glycogenolysis (utilisation of glucose) rate was very high and therefore your lactate production. Since your mechanisms to "wash out" that lactate are probably not very well developed you could not recover towards the next effort.

That is where you have to work: on improving the ability to oxidize lactate instead of improving the power per se. You can improve your power 50watts for a 2 minute period but that does not mean that you have improved your ability to oxidize lactate. It could only mean neuromuscular improvement more than a metabolic improvement.

I would talk about this to your coach. And again, as Coggan said Lactate is a more precise parameter. Lactate is extremely important to diagnose and predict performance as well as metabolic status on a cyclist.

I hope it helped.

Cheers.

Originally Posted by Urkiola2

After this small introduction, I will tell you that training exclusively by watts will not fullfill your metabolic needs for improvement.

Originally Posted by Roadie_scum

What on earth do you mean?



On this forum and in many (most?) other contexts, threshold (functional threshold power) refers to the maximal steady state power that an athlete could hold for one hour. This could also be called 60MP or 60 minute mean maximal power.

If you want to model differences between say, 5 and 15 minute power, the monod model is useful.

Originally Posted by Urkiola2

Has the UCI or American College of Sports Medicine (ACSM) dictated that the "threshold" has to be for one hour??. Does it really HAVE to be one hour?. Why many people have a 15 min test to get their "power threshold"....for 1h??..

What if the race or TT is more than 1h??. Where is your threshold then?. What if the race or TT is less than 1H??. Where is your threshold then?. What if the last climb going up Alpe D´huez is less than 1h???. Where is your threshold then?.

One thing is what an article can say or an author can think which in terms of "power threshold" there is still not evidence of its existance in terms of METABOLISM and a different thing is the "real thing" and the "battle field". I have worked with many world class cyclists in the real race situation and my personal conclusion is that "power threshold" for an hour does not really happen in the "battle field" with top pros and probably won´t not either with the rest of categories.

Cheers.

Originally Posted by jsirabella

Hello,

Thank you for the advice as it seems very scientific and your background is impressive but let me ask the next obvious question.

How do you become better at improving the ability to oxidize lactate?

-Js

Originally Posted by Urkiola2

That is where you have to work: on improving the ability to oxidize lactate instead of improving the power per se.

Originally Posted by Roadie_scum

I don't think you have tried to understand the utility of the concept. I'm not arguing that it isn't arbitary. It is just one way to peg your power training levels. I was trying to add to your understanding of what was discussed here - not suggest that is is ACSM approved, the only way of looking at things, or any other such irrelevant nonsense.

If the race is less than 1 hour, your power will be higher than your mean maximal one hour power/threshold. If longer, then it will be lower. As I suggested, the monod model is one way to account for such variances. Are you familiar with this model?

I am not very impressed by assertions of authority and histrionics.

How do you suggest someone trains?

Originally Posted by Roadie_scum

Rubbish. How is this any different to the training one would do to improve power per se?



And if you used power training sensibly you might be able to understand whether an adaptation was due to neuromuscular improvement or some other adaption.



I don't want to speak for Andy Coggan (he does that ably himself), but I don't think he suggested lactate is a better indicator of performance than power. To quote the great man: "the best indicator of performance is performance itself". Eg: power at an appropriate duration(s).

"Making simple things sound complex is the art of a charlatan." Roadie_S

Originally Posted by Urkiola2

Exactely!, you are right!. "Making simple things sound complex is the art of a charlatan."(I wont take it as an insult because I am not a Charlatan and I am on top of that)But you are right...and you are proving my point. That is why the winner of the Tour the France is the winner because he was faster than the rest. Period. Not because his power numbers where x or h and because his fractional time at power threshold is this or that, or because hes Peak power is such and such. He is the winner because he was the fastest. Simple as that.

Originally Posted by Piotr

Yeah, forget about working with power. Just work on your red blood cell count. We all know how the pros do that.