Evangelical Disconnect

TheDarkLord

What about the many babies that die soon after birth (or even within a couple of years of birth)? They never get a chance to confess their sins, no? Are they given an automatic ticket to heaven? Depending on the answer to this question, aren't they inherently advantaged/disadvantaged compared to the rest of the people?

Crankyfeet

There is a get-out-of-jail answer to all these questions. God knows. It is not up to us to question or worry about God's work. Our feeble minds can't possibly understand the majesty and purpose in his work.

Once you feel the tremendous power of God in your life... you don't question anything. It is real. At least the tremendous feelings are. Faith means => don't question. Just believe. Wonderful.

The truth may be somewhat ugly and frightening. That doesn't stop it from being the truth. The truth is the truth irrespective of our beliefs. Would you rather believe your dog went to the farm or know the truth?

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TheDarkLord

Well, you probably killed off any debate that could have ensued from these questions...

Crankyfeet

If you think debate is going to get you anywhere on this subject... I think you're mistaken. Just get up on your soap box or pulpit and deliver your sermon. Hopefully make people think. Once debate starts, forget it... feet become firmly entrenched.

This debate has been going on in forums for decades, in society for thousands of years, and in here at least for a year. I have learned a bit about spirituality and its benefits as a result. I haven't had a resounding truth revealed that has changed my mind that much. However NNS did make a break through for me by guiding me to start by walking up to the door and ignoring all the weeds in the garden.

You can only have a debate if both parties are using the same decision matrix.

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Bro Deal

Fuck that. Any god who would punish people for not accepting him when he has not given any evidence that he exists must expect people to reject rational thought and reason. He should have just made men unthinking animals in the first place.

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"You are like the wind and I like the lion. You form the tempest. The sand stings my eyes and the ground is parched. I roar in defiance but you do not hear. But between us there is a difference. I, like the lion, must remain in my place. While you like the wind will never know yours." -- Mulay Hamid El Raisuli, Lord of the Riff, Sultan to the Berbers, Last of the Barbary Pirates

TheDarkLord

Dude, I was joking. Yes, I am well aware of these things which is why I try to never enter these debates. It just becomes a pissing contest, and nobody is going to change their views anyway; so why bother?

limerickman

Where in the Bible does it say that Jesus sinned.
And where in the Bible does it say that Jesus confessed.

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.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

limerickman

This entire issue is highly subjective.

What may persuade me to believe in a particular doctrine, may not persuade you to accept that same doctrine.
Does that mean that your view or my view is invalidated?

A couple of thoughts : a lot of people follow a particular faith because they have been brought up in that faith by their parents and have broadly accepted the tenets of that faith.
Also the culture/society of a location which follows a predominant faith probably helps compel people to believe in a particular faith as well.

I look at followers of other religions and I see, in the way that they live their lives, that they're probably more "christian" than I and many other christians.
Does the fact that these people follow a different faith exclude them from being saved/going to heaven??

This subject is a highly complex issue : for example, I watched a broadcast on EWTN (Catholic TV channel).
A Catholic theologian was explaining the meaning of the passage where Christ walked on water and calmed the seas.
If you read the biblical passage in question - it is a simple story.
However this theologian went in to a half hour thesis on the meaning and symbolism of the passage.
The point being, that there is a lot more complexity with regard to scriptures.

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.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

snyper0311

In the bible, Jesus said that WE are all sinnful by nature. He included himself in that passage. It also says that Jesus prayed for the sins of all his people (to include himself).

As stated in the bible, God sent down his only son (Jesus) to pay for the sins of the world. When preparing for his death, he prayed for the sins of the world (to include his sins).

limerickman

Incorrect.

Can you quote from the Bible the pasages in which Jesus is claimed to have sinned.

Christianity teaches that Jesus is the Son of God and therefore cannot sin.

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.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

Crankyfeet

With help from Mr. Magoo-gle.


Mark 10:17-18: "And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God."

Matthew 19:16-17: "And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God..."

Luke 18:18-19: "And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God."

In Matthew 11:19 and Luke 7:34, Jesus is called a "gluttonous man and a winebibber" i.e. a glutton and a drunk.

Conspiracy to steal animals: In Mark 11:2-4, Matt 21:2-3, and Luke 19:30-31, Jesus instructs two of his disciples to go into a village - perhaps Bethany. They were to locate a colt tied up near the entrance, and to return with it. If someone stopped them they were to explain that the Lord had need of it. Otherwise, they were simply to steal the colt without paying for it or obtaining permission.

Prejudice based on race or nationality: Matthew 15:22-28 describes an incident between Jesus and a Canaanite woman. Mark 7:25-30 describes the same incident, identifying her as Greek/Syrophenician. One commentary on the Bible explains that "The inhabitants of this area were racially and linguistically connected with the ancient Canaanites."

She begged Jesus to cure her daughter who was possessed by a demon. He first ignored her, but then explained that he was sent only to bring the Gospel to the Jews, not to the Gentiles such as she. Jesus cruelly replied to the desperate mother that it was not right for him "to take the children's bread and to cast it to dogs." i.e. it is not appropriate to take the Gospel, which was intended only for the Jews, and offer it to Gentiles as well -- here described as sub-humans, as dogs. Here, Jesus was following the behavior of other observant Jews in the 1st century AD who would frequently refer to Gentiles contemptuously as "dogs." She quipped back to Jesus that even the "dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table." Jesus relented and, from a distance, cured the daughter of demonic possession because of the mother's faith.

The sin in this case was to treat a person of another race and/or nationality as sub-human, by referring to them as a dog.

There are also cases of him contravening Jewish Law (working on the Sabbath... also him and his disciples eating without washing hands, entering the Temple in Jerusalem and kicking over the vendors' property). It could be argued that Jewish Law was wrong... but they were considered sins in their day.

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limerickman

None of the passages that you have listed show that Jesus Christ sinned.

In Christian teaching, Jesus Christ is regarded as the Son of God, a divine being made man.
In Christian teaching the fact that Jesus was made man, doesn't corrupt the divinity of His being and therefore means that He was without sin.
The Holy Trinity, three persons in the One God (a very difficult concept to explain, much less understand), holds that Jesus, along with His Father and the Holy Spirit, are the One God.

If one holds that Christian teaching is incontrovertible, as synper does, then he must also hold that Jesus, as per Christian teaching, was without sin.

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.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

Crankyfeet

How could Jesus be quoted in three separate Gospels as saying that he is not good, only God is good... if he was without sin, and the Son of God? Not good implies that he was at least partially bad, at least not "good" like God. How can you be partially bad and have not sinned? I suppose you could argue that he kept out of trouble, but didn't do many "good" deeds? But Jesus' message in that passage has implications that he was separate from God.

This is the quoted word of Jesus Christ himself. Aren't the Gospels the basis of Christianity?

Isn't the claim that Jesus is the Son of God mostly a contrivance by Paul? Jesus hardly mentions it, if at all, in his teaching AFAIK.

Either the Bible is the word of God or it isn't. One can't cherry pick which pasages are real and which are fiction. The examples above show examples of Jesus breaking laws and sinning? Unless initially refusing care to a woman based on her ethnicity is not a sin? Or stealing horses is not a sin?


Actually... forget it Lim. I keep saying these arguments are pointless, than getting into them again.

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limerickman

On the face of it, there appears to be a contradiction.
The word sin is not used in the Bible in reference to Jesus having ever sinned.
Does Jesus stating that only God is good - mean that Jesus is "not good"?
I think that is quite a leap.
Especially when you couple that theory with the tenet of Christianity which says that Jesus is the Son of God and is, according to the doctrine of the Trinity, man and God.

Complex stuff.







I agree these discussions are pointless because the issues are complex, the concepts of divinity, three persons in the one God, nature of Jesus ministry are all issues of debate yesterday/today/tomorrow.

Throw in the fact that neither of us are theologians either...........

Might be easier to figure out the UCI!

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.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.