Evangelical Disconnect

nns1400

And yet Europe is, in fact, free, isn't it? And the Soviet Union collapsed, and Iraqis can vote..and Afghan women aren't wearing bags over their head anymore...but it all sucks rotten eggs because of American rhetoric...

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This stuff is just crap...Hitchy

limerickman

I'm not surprised by this response.

Is that what they teach you over there?
That your country saved civilisation?

With respect, you haven't got the first clue about what events saved civilisation.




And loads of people are still alive because of the many men/women - throughout the ALLIED nations in many locations - who fought throughout WW2.

You do your argument no favours at all by trying to claim credit for something which you, yourself, took no part in.
Not suprisingly, your response falls back in to the same defensive opinion exhibited by some Americans when their country's foreign policy is questioned.




Really?

I have two relatives who fought with US during WW2.

Never during any conversation with these people, have they tried to claim any credit for what they did.

Unlike you - they would never try to make grandiose claims about "saving civilisation" either.

You do your points no favours, NNS.

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.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

limerickman

Europe is free.

Thanks in major part to the actions of all of the ALLIED forces.




Were you ever in the USSR, NNS?

Or the Middle East, NNS?

And before you suggest that I go live there - I'm perfectly happy where I am living.

Try reading about Stalingrad, Operation Barbarossa.
You might even learn something, NNS.

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.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

jhuskey

Whoever saved civilization needs to be called quickly ,I think it wore off.

btw: Operation Barbarosas, a pitiful reminder how senseless humans can be. So many were killed each and every day.

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Whenever I can't get excited about riding I just fantasize about someone else's bike.

nns1400

I think you hit the nail on the head that people don't like that the U.S. can act unilaterally...some people IN the U.S. don't like that we can act unilaterally. I am sure I would also find that frustrating if I were on the other side. And I think that exists no matter what the issue of the day is. Does that mean my country should not ever act unilaterally, because it is frustrating to less powerful people? I find that ridiculous. Feelings of the world noted, but that shouldn't determine American foreign policy either.

I do understand what you're saying, that some American leaders don't seem to understand the world well enough to understand the potential consequences of their actions, very specifically in the current times...but I would argue that the reaction to that goes to an opposite "extreme" so to speak, that the US shouldn't ever do anything unilaterally, and that the blessing of other nations is somehow...required...for American action. I'm sorry, I don't want a President who thinks that way either. (That ultimately sunk John Kerry, IMHO...) Or who thinks we should apologize for being the most powerful country in the world atm...

I just wonder sometimes who the world would "prefer" to be the most powerful country in the world...because there will always be one, or two....and everyone will have to fear their rhetoric, and live by nature under the influence of that country's actions. That's reality.

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This stuff is just crap...Hitchy

limerickman

Yes, Operation barbarossa cost a huge number of lives.

The harshness of the terrain, the meeting of two implacable opposing armies who were prepared to slug it out until one was left standing doesn't do justice to the savagery of that particular conflict.

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.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

nns1400

Geez, relax, Lim.

I didn't say ME...you were presumably not talking about me earlier, were you?...I make no grandiose claims...I've never done anything for anybody...I'm 41. The best thing I can lay claim to is to try and raise some decent kids who are in fact altruistic.

Why do you have get so bent out of shape? Individuals who fought in WWII do not try to claim personal credit, they are usually quite humble. I'm saying that it hurts their feelings....okay? Americans, shockingly, have feelings. It hurts American's feelings that they...people...went and fought hard with their Allies...and won, and "saved the world" okay...yes, saved the world from the Nazis....and they did it for the right reasons. And now somehow they get the finger. And scolded because their country NEVER does anything for the right reasons. Is that so hard to understand?

And why is it so hard, Lim, to just frigging ADMIT that the ALLIED nations were going to fall without the United States. Okay, God love'em....we (people) always have loved our ALLIES (well, not Russia) and felt that brotherly bond with them and all that stuff. Ever seen The Longest Day...we did it together. NNS knows that....

I am explaining WHY Americans fall into that defensive position...

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This stuff is just crap...Hitchy

nns1400

War is hell...

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This stuff is just crap...Hitchy

limerickman

I suggest that we should agree to disagree and leave it at that.

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.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

nns1400

Oh, I forgot, Lim...I'm not allowed to speak of anyplace I didn't go. But I'm sure you thought the USSR was great...no doubt about that. They didn't have any scary rhetoric or imperial intentions.

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This stuff is just crap...Hitchy

nns1400

Oh, well okay then... I win... (J/K )

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This stuff is just crap...Hitchy

Crankyfeet

With due respect Lim and nothing personal intended... NNS was not saying that the US "saved civilisation" in my interpretation. She was paraphrasing your allegation and making a rebuttal explaining the rationale behind the viewpoints of the US people you were describing.

Also... I think her point was that the US generally cop flack and criticism for a lot of their foreign policy and actions on the world stage (some of that criticism being justified she admits)... but the appreciation for the good and help the US has provided is awfully quiet in comparison.

The Allied forces won WWII. But the American assistance, both in soldiers and military supplies, was a very important factor that arguably tipped the balance significantly. You obviously are fully aware that GB (and Ireland) were fighting to save their own countries from German Nazi rule. The German invasion threat to America's soil was practically and realistically nonexistent (despite Hitler declaring war on the US... which seems about as crazy as Japan bombing Pearl Harbor in hindsight). America was there in major part to help a friend IMO (world political ramifications of Nazi European dominance notwithstanding).

I am in agreement with you on most subjects that come up in this forum Lim. I think that US foreign policy can be arrogant... as well as the attitude of some of it's loudest citizens and political figures. But I think European arrogance that Europeans know more about world history than any other country's peoples is also prevalent... as well as the Eurocentric bias to "world" history that Europeans seem to have... as a generalisation. You make personal judgments about NNS' knowledge that betray a tendency to stereotype US people. I agree that the UK and France have had a long history of colonization and have learnt a lot about occupation of other countries. But a lot of Europe's current generation ride on the coattails of that history I feel, without having any direct experience themselves. From my experience living in the US... the country has some extremely diverse viewpoints from different people within it's citizenship.... and until you live here IMO... it is easy to generalize too much on a uniform US trait/viewpoint (which I was guilty of doing before I came here).

Also... it is fairly obvious that you generally dislike America and Americans from your past posts in other threads. That may be affecting your objectivity a little...

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C'dale Girl

Good post Cranky.

A few thoughts/points.

First, the "truth" of history itself is in the eye of the beholder. A simple example is in the fact that you cannot even go to a bookstore and get one uniform historical account of American history.

Instead, if you would like the liberal view, then you read Howard Zinn's "A People's History of the United States." There you will learn all about how the Native American Indians were the friendliest, most non-aggressive people in the world and the white man came from nowhere and exercised biological warfare on the Indians to drive them out.

Or, if you would prefer the more conservative version, then you can read Paul Johnson's "A History of the American People." There you will learn all about how the white man bent over backwards for the animalistically mean and aggressive American Indian and did them all kinds of favors and really saved them as a people in the end by teaching them the white man's way of life with farming, etc.

The real "truth" as to what actually happened to the American Indians and the white man's role in same actually lies somewhere in the middle. The two books' accounts of American history vary greatly throughout. As with ANYTHING, the truth ALWAYS lies somewhere in the middle.

The fact of the matter is that "history" itself is a spectrum and not a straight line of concrete facts . . . an optical illusion really based on the individual story teller's own personal biases and opinions. One's own biases, opinions and background go into absolutely everything the individual perceives OR observes.

Which leads me to often wonder since visiting global forums, how history is taught in other countries as it pertains to the United States in particular.

Just as I do not buy into my own schools' history lessons of the US being heroes over and over again, I expect citizens of other countries not to buy into their schools' propaganda that the US is always the bully/bad guy. But, the more time I spend on global internet forums, the more it becomes obvious to me that many others do not recognize the fact that history courses themselves are nothing more than subjective opinion filled with the instructors' and text-writers internal biases and their nation's views . . . propaganda. Really, all history books should have a disclaimer stating "This story is based on actual events."

Raise your internet virtual hand if you like to hang around Bible thumpers please. Anbody? Anybody? I'm going to go out on a virtual limb and guess that nobody's hand is raised atm.

The Bible thumper KNOWS they are right, that their beliefs are actually CONCRETE FACTS, and is certain it is their function in life to convert everyone else. They lack tact and social graces in their efforts to convert others, because in thumping others with their own perception of reality, they are disrespectful of others' perceptions, personal upbringing, biases, background, beliefs, etc.

Well, the non-Americans constantly bashing and thumping US citizens for their country's actions (as subjectively perceived by those non-Americans), is actually no different. It is just as rude and tactless, inconsiderate and annoying.

I especially love all of the thumping about our "ignorance." Ignorance is actually in the eye of the beholder, as explained above. And, what you all claim to be examples of our "ignorance" perhaps is actually a level of tact in not engaging in the tasteless debate.

It is common knowledge in many American circles that you never bring up religion or politics in conversation, because it is perceived to be rude, disrespectful of the vast many differences of opinion that we all know exist, and no good ever comes out of it because you're never going to sway others from their positions on such matters.

A thumper is a thumper (no pun intended with thunder since he's not been around much lately) . . . . whether you're a Bible thumper or an anti-American policy thumper, you're still a thumper and perceived no differently . . . ANNOYING.

I have a forced-upon family friend who is a Bible thumper. Always telling you what you should and shouldn't do according to the Bible and always quoting scripture. I argue the opposing view with him all the time, even if I don't BELIEVE in the opposing view, simply for sport and to piss him off, because I find him to be such an annoyance.

Maybe, just maybe, Americans do the same thing with anti-American policy thumpers . . . because they really are no different on the annoyance factor.

Felt_Rider

virtual hand raised ......must admit a litttle later than atm.
But I do ride a C-dale so maybe you won't be quite as annoyed with me.

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