Evangelical Disconnect

limerickman

.........and those same lenders who constantly object to "regulation" and support "less goverment" are going to the State, asking that loathesome interferring state to, err, help bail 'em out.

Thta's the problem with these out and out capitalists sorts........even their own greed consumes them and then they want bailing out by the very institutions which they implacably despise.




No mate.
You've got me completely wrong.

The best economic model, in my opinion, is a mixed economy, part Keynesian-based and part Friedman-based.

Putting my cards on the table : Scandinavian economic/political systems are
the most progressive and equitable in the world.
The sign of an advanced society, in my opinion, is one which has the most even distribution of wealth for all.





Ideally, I want kids to be brought up in a stable environment.
I support the institution of marriage and family.

But.
I'm also cognisant of the fact that not everyone agrees with the marriage/stable environment notion.
In fact, just because people are married doesn't mean that the home environment for kids is good/stable either.
Chances are is that such an environment is better, in my opinion.

Re : birth control pills to 12yo's.
I don't consider this to be a political issue first and foremost.
It's a moral/ethical issue.

__________________
.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

limerickman

I disagree.

The sub-prime market shows the very weakness of capitalism, in my opinion.
Unmitigated greed on the part of the consumer (to borrow) and on the part of the capital provider to loan easy money (bank) has resulted in this debacle.

If the banks were not as greedy as they were to make profits and if the consumers were not as greedy as they were to buy houses/extract equity to buy more, then this entire debacle would have been avoided.

The root cause of all this was the forced de-regulation of the financial markets by those, like Friedman, who suggested that too much regulation.
What we see now is as a result of de-regulation.





But when the collapse happens - as it inevitably does happen like in 1929 - who bails all the system out?
The goverment.
The New Deal in the 1930's.




If this is the case - and I dont agree that it is the case - the level of foreclosures and the amount of houses, secondhand houses, are not moving
in your country.

Maybe they're waiting for the price to fall further - but there has been no take up in property sales in the USA, even with the property market falling rapidly.

__________________
.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

Bro Deal

No, it's not. Although I won't go so far as Perot's "If his wife cannot trust him, how can we?" argument, in Clinton's case his personal corruption is very similar to his public corruption.

Clinton supporters have tried to brush off what he did by claiming that it was his private life so nobody should care, but the issue was never whether he got a blow job in the Oval Office or not. Clinton has a long history of abusing his public office. He was corrupt, and it goes far beyond using government employees to satisfy his sexual desires.

He swore to uphold the law, and part of that law is the right of citizens to due process of law and that no person because of his position should be above the law. When Clinton was sued for sexual harassment he committed perjury. He did not lie because he was afraid his wife would find out he was having affairs--she knew he was. He did not lie because he did not want the country to find out--anyone with a brain who had followed the news knew he often cheated on his wife. He lied because his dalliance with Lewinski proved the plaintiff's assertion of a pattern of behavior. Someone who would corrupt the court system for his own personal benefit should not be president.

Beyond his personal conduct, Clinton was someone who had no principles. He would tell anyone anything they wanted to hear in order to get their vote. His entire reason for wanting to be president appears to have been driven by ego, much like a high schooler who wants to be class president so he can be a big man on campus.

Two times during his presidency he launched military actions for political reasons; in short, he killed people for domestic political purposes. Bush on the other hand really believes god wants him to be president. The results are the same--innocent people got killed-but I will concede that I Clinton is somewhat better in this regard. Cynical and corrupt I understand. Religious nuts I don't.

The only thing Clinton has over Dubya is that he would bend to the way the political wind was blowing, which acts as a natural brake. If 9/11 had happened on Clinton's watch he would have been just as keen and maybe more so than Dubya to launch a war. When public opinion turned against the war, he would have found a way to get out, while Dubya continues to forge ahead.

I could also make the argument the Clinton presidency provided the groundwork for Bush to be able to do what he has done. Bush's stonewalling, outright circumvention of laws, use of the Big Lie, and fallback on his party to back him no matter what is a mirror image of what Clinton and the Democrats did. Without Clinton Dubya would never have been able to get away with as much as he has.

__________________
"You are like the wind and I like the lion. You form the tempest. The sand stings my eyes and the ground is parched. I roar in defiance but you do not hear. But between us there is a difference. I, like the lion, must remain in my place. While you like the wind will never know yours." -- Mulay Hamid El Raisuli, Lord of the Riff, Sultan to the Berbers, Last of the Barbary Pirates

Bro Deal

Huh, so Jefferson and Franklin were Holy Rollers in your world. Wow. I thought the christian types were not too keen on heavy drugs. Wow.

__________________
"You are like the wind and I like the lion. You form the tempest. The sand stings my eyes and the ground is parched. I roar in defiance but you do not hear. But between us there is a difference. I, like the lion, must remain in my place. While you like the wind will never know yours." -- Mulay Hamid El Raisuli, Lord of the Riff, Sultan to the Berbers, Last of the Barbary Pirates

Bro Deal

Again, what exactly are they teaching? Let's see some examples.

__________________
"You are like the wind and I like the lion. You form the tempest. The sand stings my eyes and the ground is parched. I roar in defiance but you do not hear. But between us there is a difference. I, like the lion, must remain in my place. While you like the wind will never know yours." -- Mulay Hamid El Raisuli, Lord of the Riff, Sultan to the Berbers, Last of the Barbary Pirates

Bro Deal

Agreed. There will some talk of helping out some poor schmucks who were stupid enough to buy a house that cost ten times their income. Politicos will probably trot out some grandmothers who are losing their houses because predatory lenders talked them into HELOCs that were impossible for them to repay. But ultimately any bailout (taxpayer) money will go to banks, hedge funds, holders of CDOs and MBSs, etc. Joe Smoe is certainly not going to get a check for a hundred Gs.

The talk of helping out home owners will just be what is used to sell the bailout.

__________________
"You are like the wind and I like the lion. You form the tempest. The sand stings my eyes and the ground is parched. I roar in defiance but you do not hear. But between us there is a difference. I, like the lion, must remain in my place. While you like the wind will never know yours." -- Mulay Hamid El Raisuli, Lord of the Riff, Sultan to the Berbers, Last of the Barbary Pirates

bkaapcke

There are enough homosexuals out there to support a conclusion that it is just a normal part of human sexuality. Teaching children about it is done in the hope that they will grow up without the hatred displayed by chrilstlians and others. This is a good thing. They are here, they're queer and they are entitled to equal rights.

As much as the Calvinists would like to execute all of them, we're not going to let that happen. It is clear that christilans cannot tolerate giving them equality and insist on denying rights. The rest of us need to impose the 'golden rule' on the christilan community. You know, treat christilans like they treat homosexuals. The christians couldn't take living on a two way street. bk

Religious hatreds ought not be propagated at all, but certainly not on a tax-exempt basis. James Michener

Billsworld

The topic was started by BK and turned to Morgages and ecenomics. The ecenomic bridge was made becuase BK objects to evengelical types influencing govt and society . I used The Portland Maine example in and of itself to illustrate why Christians are so vocal when it comes to politics and social changes. Teaching that homosexuality is normal to my kids is likely to get a similar reaction as if they teach creation to BKs kids. It is /was simply an example of why a more Libertarian government works. Freedom allows people to behave an raise their children as they wish as long as it doesnt interfere with others freedom. Teaching manners BRO is something that kids should learn in school , not why Danny has two daddy. It is the left that doesnt understand that when their values are being imposed on others is the same as what they cry about when Christians try to impose their values on them. BK says stay out of my bedroom, I agree. Just stop teaching my kids about what is going on in his bedroom and teach my kid to do math please

jhuskey

As far as Clinton or Bush or anyone. A person is what a person is, what they think ,do and believe.
Public or private doesn't matter.
btw: I hate the media and it's spins. Did I mention that before?

__________________
Whenever I can't get excited about riding I just fantasize about someone else's bike.

Billsworld

Most Christians that study the Bible, understand that Jesus simplified the law to " Love your God with all your heart and love your neighhbor as yourself" The second part of that stetement doesnt exclude gays , minorities or anyone. Chist also said to love your enemies. Ok the church has some history that isnt what it should be, but any church or Christians in general that prides itself on teaching and obeying the Bible will try to impact society by caring for its neighbors.I believe involvement in politics has been done in self defense more than judgement on lifesyles they dont agree with. Paul does however speak about sanctioning behavior within the church and uses a man sleeping with his brothers wife as an example. The judgement within a body of believers should be handled differently that how it relates to society . IOW if you are Gay and expect to become a elder at a Baptist church they are within their rights to show you the door. It comes back to public vs. private.

limerickman

I disagree,
Teaching manners to children is the job of the parents - not the school's job.



Both sides of the argument have their respective "loony" fringes.

It's like when people accuse others of having the freedom of speech curtailed - despite the fact that they use this freedom to hurl/incite abuse toward other people.
When they're told that they cannot hurl abuse - they roll out the platitude "you're curtailing my right to speak....blah, blah".

Freedom of speech - freedom of (pick any subject) - doesn't give people carte blanche to speak/behave as they choose.

__________________
.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

limerickman

Going down to road of saying "XYZ is normal and ABC is abnormal" : isn't the way to go, I would suggest.

Homosexuality is a part of the human condition.
Most reasonable people, I believe, accept that there are homosexuals and that homosexuals should be allowed to live their lives, just as heterosexual people.
Calvinists burning people doesn't resonate in my part of the world - so your using these metaphores doesn't help the discussion.

I can't speak about what you may have experienced in your part of the world, but where we are, legislation to ratify issues like inheritance rights for homosexual couples is in process and has widespread political support.
This is huge progress - when you consider that homosexuality was a criminal offence here up to the 1960's (although that legislation was never enacted).

As I said I think you'll find that most people are prepared to accomodate and be reasonable as regards these issues.

__________________
.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

bkaapcke

Gay rights are making large strides here in the U.S.A. but progress is being slowed down by christlians who fight it at every turn. They apparently believe we all must live under their bogus and antiquated morals. It's a big problem here, and everywhere. bk

limerickman

As stated earlier, homosexuality has been decriminalised and progressive legislation is in train here.

I think your differences with Christianity are highly subjective.

Much better to try to move the discussion along instead of repeating the same
mantra.

__________________
.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.