The Trudgen Stroke

_

On Fri, 16 Nov 2007 07:47:24 -0600, Pat wrote:

>>>
>>> Sactioning became an issue with the war between the Swimming Association
>>> of
>>> Great Britain and the Amateur Swimming Union, circa 1885.
>>
>> No.
>>
>> FINA didn't exist until 1908.
>
> IIRC, the question was if competitive swimmers ever used the side stroke,
> not "did competitive swimmers use the side stroke in the USA" (or in any
> specific country). So, the answer is still "yes", it was used in
> competition.
>
> Pat in TX

Of course it was. The first strokes used in modern competitve swimming
were breastsroke and sidestroke. As an organised sport swimming began
around 1840. The first 5 Olympics pre-date the establishment of FINA, and
swimming races were conducted and competitions were sanctioned for decades
well before that - even in the USofA, which got its first set of rules from
the SAGB in the 1880's.

The ASA publication "Swimming" from 1915 has several chapters on the then
extant state and the development of the racing strokes; of which the
following quote:

"One can easily trace the relationship between the successive varieties,
for only slight changes took place in passing from the breast to the side,
then in turn to the single-over-arm, double-over-arm, trudgeon[1], early
crawl, and finally the latter's present namesake."

quite clearly shows that these strokes had been used during races conducted
under the sanction of ASA and its progenitors (the SAGB and MSA).

[1] The spelling of trudgeon as shown is that used by the author (L. de B.
Handley) and many other notable swimmers and authorities on swimming of the
time, such as Hodgson, Martin, Unwin, Waterman, etcetera.

Pat

>
> Yes, but your quote was about the Trudgen stroke, the overarm sidestroke,
> which is not sidestroke.

Let me see what the book says about the overarm sidestroke....

page 117
"Evidence of the origin and subsequent development of this style of
swimming leaves little room for doubt that it was a direct outgrowth of
breast stroke swimming."

"For historical proof of this Ralph Thomas must again be cited as authority.
In his book he states that prior to 1840 all evidence indicates that for
swimming on the side the breast stroke was employed. At approximately that
date the stroke of the arms was changed to the alternate relay pull and very
shortly therafter (1840-1844) the scissors of the legs was evolved and the
style of swimming called by him the English side stroke came into general
use."

Page 121
"overarm side stroke--There has been some confusion in recent years
concerning the name which properly applies to this style of swimming. It has
been termed variously; the single overhand, single overarm, English overarm,
English side stroke and overarm side stroke. It is most frequently referred
to as the English overarm stroke largely because of its origin. It is true
that it had its origins and greatest development in England but as there is
no other overarm side stroke it is referred to in England simply by that
name should be so termed."

"The overarm side stroke is a natural variation of the side stroke and,
doubtless, came into use at almost the same time. Thomas gives its date of
origin as 1855 but it must have been used experimentally years before then,
since the only change involved was to recover the upper arm over the
surface, instead of beneath it, to reduce resistance. It was first
described as a distinct style of swimming by Ralph Harrington in 1861. The
overarm side stroke came into general use in England at about the same time
that interest in competitive swimming quickened. The search for speedier
strokes may or may not have been a factor in its evolution, but certainly
this style of swimming was used by most of the swimming champions over a
period of years which extended almost to the turn of the century. In the
earlier years Davenport and Finney were among the best and speediest
exponenents of overarm side stroke swimming and they were followed by
Nuttall, Evans and Tyers who held championships for many years."

"With the advent of the trudgen style of swimming, overarm side stroke
swimming began to fade as a speed stroke and when the crawl came in, it was
quickly forgotten by competitive swimmers."

Interesting, eh?

Pat in TX

mwsmith

Pat wrote:
>> Yes, but your quote was about the Trudgen stroke, the overarm sidestroke,
>> which is not sidestroke.
>
> Let me see what the book says about the overarm sidestroke....
>
> page 117
> "Evidence of the origin and subsequent development of this style of
> swimming leaves little room for doubt that it was a direct outgrowth of
> breast stroke swimming."
>
> "For historical proof of this Ralph Thomas must again be cited as authority.
> In his book he states that prior to 1840 all evidence indicates that for
> swimming on the side the breast stroke was employed. At approximately that
> date the stroke of the arms was changed to the alternate relay pull and very
> shortly therafter (1840-1844) the scissors of the legs was evolved and the
> style of swimming called by him the English side stroke came into general
> use."
>
> Page 121
> "overarm side stroke--There has been some confusion in recent years
> concerning the name which properly applies to this style of swimming. It has
> been termed variously; the single overhand, single overarm, English overarm,
> English side stroke and overarm side stroke. It is most frequently referred
> to as the English overarm stroke largely because of its origin. It is true
> that it had its origins and greatest development in England but as there is
> no other overarm side stroke it is referred to in England simply by that
> name should be so termed."
>
> "The overarm side stroke is a natural variation of the side stroke and,
> doubtless, came into use at almost the same time. Thomas gives its date of
> origin as 1855 but it must have been used experimentally years before then,
> since the only change involved was to recover the upper arm over the
> surface, instead of beneath it, to reduce resistance. It was first
> described as a distinct style of swimming by Ralph Harrington in 1861. The
> overarm side stroke came into general use in England at about the same time
> that interest in competitive swimming quickened. The search for speedier
> strokes may or may not have been a factor in its evolution, but certainly
> this style of swimming was used by most of the swimming champions over a
> period of years which extended almost to the turn of the century. In the
> earlier years Davenport and Finney were among the best and speediest
> exponenents of overarm side stroke swimming and they were followed by
> Nuttall, Evans and Tyers who held championships for many years."
>
> "With the advent of the trudgen style of swimming, overarm side stroke
> swimming began to fade as a speed stroke and when the crawl came in, it was
> quickly forgotten by competitive swimmers."
>
> Interesting, eh?

Not particularly. As someone else explained, if you know how to swim
crawlstroke, sidestroke is only useful for dragging an unconscious
person to shore. And that isn't really sidestroke. I didn't know that
Trudgen got it wrong, originally. The natives he observed were actually
swimming crawlstroke, but he didn't observe the flutter kick. What was
he thinking?

Pat

>
> Not particularly. As someone else explained, if you know how to swim
> crawlstroke, sidestroke is only useful for dragging an unconscious person
> to shore. And that isn't really sidestroke. I didn't know that Trudgen got
> it wrong, originally. The natives he observed were actually swimming
> crawlstroke, but he didn't observe the flutter kick. What was he thinking?

You are looking back at the development of the strokes with today's
knowledge and that's not fair to people in 1856.... I find the sidestroke
useful in a few ways. For one, after a hard day of cycling, it helps to work
out the tightness of my quads and hamstrings. For another, if I really need
to belch, sidestroke is great!

I can write more about the Trudgeon stroke later. The natives weren't using
the flutter kick, according to the book.

As to the original question, the answer is, yes, the sidestroke was used in
competition. I find it interesting that evidently in those days the
competition was simply who got to the end point first and whatever stroke
was used didn't matter.

Pat in TX
>

mwsmith

Pat wrote:
>> Not particularly. As someone else explained, if you know how to swim
>> crawlstroke, sidestroke is only useful for dragging an unconscious person
>> to shore. And that isn't really sidestroke. I didn't know that Trudgen got
>> it wrong, originally. The natives he observed were actually swimming
>> crawlstroke, but he didn't observe the flutter kick. What was he thinking?
>
> You are looking back at the development of the strokes with today's
> knowledge and that's not fair to people in 1856.... I find the sidestroke
> useful in a few ways. For one, after a hard day of cycling, it helps to work
> out the tightness of my quads and hamstrings. For another, if I really need
> to belch, sidestroke is great!

Ten minutes of stretching would be more efficient for your quads and
hamstrings.

> I can write more about the Trudgeon stroke later. The natives weren't using
> the flutter kick, according to the book.

The article I read said they were doing crawlstroke. In either case,
they weren't using the sidestroke scissors kick.

> As to the original question, the answer is, yes, the sidestroke was used in
> competition. I find it interesting that evidently in those days the
> competition was simply who got to the end point first and whatever stroke
> was used didn't matter.

You can still do that, sort of, in events that are called freestyle.
It's not strictly freestyle, but you don't have to swim crawlstroke. You
could swim trudgeon if you wanted to. Some people do it in masters events.

cardarch

On Nov 14, 10:25 pm, iamh2o...@webtv.net (Steve Curtis) wrote:
> "Steve Freides" wrote:
> >We still teach sidestroke, including that
> >kick, in the YMCA swimming program
> >and the YMCA lifeguard class.
>
> Has there ever been a sanctioned competitive sidestroke event?

I was told by a Navy Seal a few years ago the the sidestroke was the
offical Seal stroke and the one the used for all their water work.

Pat

For one, after a hard day of cycling, it helps to work
>> out the tightness of my quads and hamstrings.
>
> Ten minutes of stretching would be more efficient for your quads and
> hamstrings.

No. I am talking about the soreness that comes the next day. I can stretch
after cycling or even before, but yesterday I had 5 good-sized hills that
left some soreness today.

>
>> I can write more about the Trudgeon stroke later. The natives weren't
>> using the flutter kick, according to the book.
>
> The article I read said they were doing crawlstroke. In either case, they
> weren't using the sidestroke scissors kick.

Okay, here's what the book says:
"Quoting from Sinclair and Henry's work on Swimming "the account of an eye
witness of Trudgen's first race in England is revealing." The following in
turn is a quotation from Watson in the Swimming Record of 1873. He said, "A
surprising swimmer carried off the handicap--we allude to Trudgen: this
individual swam with both arms entirely out of water, an action peculiar to
Indians. His time was very fast, particularly for one who appears to know
but little of swimming, and should he become more finished of style, we
shall expect to see him take a position almost second to none as a
swimmer...."

"In Trudgen, however, a totally opposite state of things existed; for here
we had a man swimming apparently easy, turning very badly and when finished,
appearing as though he could have gone another 80 yards at the same pace.
His action reminds an observer of a style peculiar to the Indians: both arms
are thrown partly sideways, but very slowly, and the head kept completely
above water."

"Henry, remarking further about Trudgen's style wrote, "The body is lifted
at each stroke and at each swing of the arms seems to be hurled forward, a
considerable swirl of the water occurring as each movement is finished."
Neither of these quotations describe the leg portion of the stroke but that
of Henry does give a clue. The "hurling forward of the body at each stroke
of the arms" and the high position of the head and shoulders can mean only
one thing; that the legs using a combination of breast and side stroke kick
were delivering a thrust with each arm stroke. This is substantiated by
evidence displayed among some native South Americans and West Indians who
use this double kick with the hand-over-hand arm stroke even now."

"Briefly, it (the trudgen stroke) is a combination of the hand-over-hand
method of employing the arms in combination with a single scissors stroke of
the legs which by adding a considerable roll of the body has evolved from
the overarm side stroke. The arm on one side strokes along but on the
other, the arm pull is combined with a scissors of the legs."

So, according to "American Red Cross Swimming and Diving" published in 1938,
the scissors kick associated with the sidestroke is integral to the trudgen
stroke and always has been. Not only that, but they used a lot fewer commas
in that day!

I still plan to ask those people who swim this way (sort of) but I haven't
seen them in a few days. Today there was a young guy who did a kind of
double wave with his hands right after they entered the water in the forward
crawl. It reminded me of the way Queen Elizabeth waves by rotating her
wrist. With him, it appeared he was shaking the water off of his
hands---underwater. There was an older man there who swam the crawl with his
entire head out of the water and had to rest at the end of the pool. Looking
left, looking right, not missing a thing! The young woman with all the pool
toys showed up, and there was the 80 year old woman who swims without moving
her legs ("I don't know why I don't move my legs, but I just don't---I used
to, I remember that."), and a middle-aged woman who swims the crawl straight
armed until it gets to the rib cage and then she retracts her hand to her
belly as if it got stung. The usual bunch except for the older woman who
swims the crawl with her elbow entering the water first. The regular
crowd....

Pat in TX

_

On Fri, 16 Nov 2007 17:25:54 -0600, Pat wrote:

> For one, after a hard day of cycling, it helps to work
>>> out the tightness of my quads and hamstrings.
>>
>> Ten minutes of stretching would be more efficient for your quads and
>> hamstrings.
>
> No. I am talking about the soreness that comes the next day. I can stretch
> after cycling or even before, but yesterday I had 5 good-sized hills that
> left some soreness today.
>
>>
>>> I can write more about the Trudgeon stroke later. The natives weren't
>>> using the flutter kick, according to the book.
>>
>> The article I read said they were doing crawlstroke. In either case, they
>> weren't using the sidestroke scissors kick.

Hatfield's 1915 description of the "Trudgeon Crawl Stroke" very clearly
describes a scissors action, and indicates it is the "trudgeon kick".

>
> Okay, here's what the book says:
> "Quoting from Sinclair and Henry's work on Swimming "the account of an eye
> witness of Trudgen's first race in England is revealing." The following in
> turn is a quotation from Watson in the Swimming Record of 1873. He said, "A
> surprising swimmer carried off the handicap--we allude to Trudgen: this
> individual swam with both arms entirely out of water, an action peculiar to
> Indians. His time was very fast, particularly for one who appears to know
> but little of swimming, and should he become more finished of style, we
> shall expect to see him take a position almost second to none as a
> swimmer...."
>
> "In Trudgen, however, a totally opposite state of things existed; for here
> we had a man swimming apparently easy, turning very badly and when finished,
> appearing as though he could have gone another 80 yards at the same pace.
> His action reminds an observer of a style peculiar to the Indians: both arms
> are thrown partly sideways, but very slowly, and the head kept completely
> above water."
>
> "Henry, remarking further about Trudgen's style wrote, "The body is lifted
> at each stroke and at each swing of the arms seems to be hurled forward, a
> considerable swirl of the water occurring as each movement is finished."
> Neither of these quotations describe the leg portion of the stroke but that
> of Henry does give a clue. The "hurling forward of the body at each stroke
> of the arms" and the high position of the head and shoulders can mean only
> one thing; that the legs using a combination of breast and side stroke kick
> were delivering a thrust with each arm stroke. This is substantiated by
> evidence displayed among some native South Americans and West Indians who
> use this double kick with the hand-over-hand arm stroke even now."
>
> "Briefly, it (the trudgen stroke) is a combination of the hand-over-hand
> method of employing the arms in combination with a single scissors stroke of
> the legs which by adding a considerable roll of the body has evolved from
> the overarm side stroke. The arm on one side strokes along but on the
> other, the arm pull is combined with a scissors of the legs."
>
> So, according to "American Red Cross Swimming and Diving" published in 1938,
> the scissors kick associated with the sidestroke is integral to the trudgen
> stroke and always has been. Not only that, but they used a lot fewer commas
> in that day!
>
> I still plan to ask those people who swim this way (sort of) but I haven't
> seen them in a few days. Today there was a young guy who did a kind of
> double wave with his hands right after they entered the water in the forward
> crawl. It reminded me of the way Queen Elizabeth waves by rotating her
> wrist. With him, it appeared he was shaking the water off of his
> hands---underwater. There was an older man there who swam the crawl with his
> entire head out of the water and had to rest at the end of the pool. Looking
> left, looking right, not missing a thing! The young woman with all the pool
> toys showed up, and there was the 80 year old woman who swims without moving
> her legs ("I don't know why I don't move my legs, but I just don't---I used
> to, I remember that."), and a middle-aged woman who swims the crawl straight
> armed until it gets to the rib cage and then she retracts her hand to her
> belly as if it got stung. The usual bunch except for the older woman who
> swims the crawl with her elbow entering the water first. The regular
> crowd....
>
> Pat in TX



The woman who does not move her legs may well have improved her stroke to
the point where leg action is superfluous.

Thad Smith

mwsmith wrote:
> As someone else explained, if you know how to swim
> crawlstroke, sidestroke is only useful for dragging an unconscious
> person to shore.

I find that the sidestroke requires less energy, although it's slower,
than the crawl, and I use it to rest if I start getting exhausted. I
suspect that it is because more propulsion comes from my legs.

--
Thad

Thad Smith

mwsmith wrote:
> Pat wrote:
>> As to the original question, the answer is, yes, the sidestroke was
>> used in competition. I find it interesting that evidently in those
>> days the competition was simply who got to the end point first and
>> whatever stroke was used didn't matter.
>
> You can still do that, sort of, in events that are called freestyle.
> It's not strictly freestyle, but you don't have to swim crawlstroke.

What restrictions are there in competitive freestyle?

--
Thad

dave.clary@geewhizmail.com

On Fri, 16 Nov 2007 21:41:22 -0700, Thad Smith <ThadSmith@acm.org>
wrote:

>mwsmith wrote:
>> Pat wrote:
>>> As to the original question, the answer is, yes, the sidestroke was
>>> used in competition. I find it interesting that evidently in those
>>> days the competition was simply who got to the end point first and
>>> whatever stroke was used didn't matter.
>>
>> You can still do that, sort of, in events that are called freestyle.
>> It's not strictly freestyle, but you don't have to swim crawlstroke.
>
>What restrictions are there in competitive freestyle?

The only restrictions using FINA based rules are heads-up by 15
meters, no pushing forward off the pool bottom, or pulling the lane
ropes. I can't think of anything else unless it's a medley.

--
Dave Clary/Corpus Christi, TX
http://davidclary.com

mwsmith

Pat wrote:
> For one, after a hard day of cycling, it helps to work
>>> out the tightness of my quads and hamstrings.
>> Ten minutes of stretching would be more efficient for your quads and
>> hamstrings.
>
> No. I am talking about the soreness that comes the next day. I can stretch
> after cycling or even before, but yesterday I had 5 good-sized hills that
> left some soreness today.

Maybe you should have said soreness then, instead of tightness.

>>> I can write more about the Trudgeon stroke later. The natives weren't
>>> using the flutter kick, according to the book.
>> The article I read said they were doing crawlstroke. In either case, they
>> weren't using the sidestroke scissors kick.
>
> Okay, here's what the book says:
> "Quoting from Sinclair and Henry's work on Swimming "the account of an eye
> witness of Trudgen's first race in England is revealing." The following in
> turn is a quotation from Watson in the Swimming Record of 1873. He said, "A
> surprising swimmer carried off the handicap--we allude to Trudgen: this
> individual swam with both arms entirely out of water, an action peculiar to
> Indians. His time was very fast, particularly for one who appears to know
> but little of swimming, and should he become more finished of style, we
> shall expect to see him take a position almost second to none as a
> swimmer...."
>
> "In Trudgen, however, a totally opposite state of things existed; for here
> we had a man swimming apparently easy, turning very badly and when finished,
> appearing as though he could have gone another 80 yards at the same pace.
> His action reminds an observer of a style peculiar to the Indians: both arms
> are thrown partly sideways, but very slowly, and the head kept completely
> above water."
>
> "Henry, remarking further about Trudgen's style wrote, "The body is lifted
> at each stroke and at each swing of the arms seems to be hurled forward, a
> considerable swirl of the water occurring as each movement is finished."
> Neither of these quotations describe the leg portion of the stroke but that
> of Henry does give a clue. The "hurling forward of the body at each stroke
> of the arms" and the high position of the head and shoulders can mean only
> one thing; that the legs using a combination of breast and side stroke kick
> were delivering a thrust with each arm stroke. This is substantiated by
> evidence displayed among some native South Americans and West Indians who
> use this double kick with the hand-over-hand arm stroke even now."
>
> "Briefly, it (the trudgen stroke) is a combination of the hand-over-hand
> method of employing the arms in combination with a single scissors stroke of
> the legs which by adding a considerable roll of the body has evolved from
> the overarm side stroke. The arm on one side strokes along but on the
> other, the arm pull is combined with a scissors of the legs."
>
> So, according to "American Red Cross Swimming and Diving" published in 1938,
> the scissors kick associated with the sidestroke is integral to the trudgen
> stroke and always has been. Not only that, but they used a lot fewer commas
> in that day!

I've seen the kick he is describing and used it, if I understand him
correctly. It isn't a scissors kick in the sidestroke sense. It's an
exaggerated flutter kick, although flutter isn't the right term. The
legs aren't bent, as they are in the sidestroke kick. Where I use it is
in open water swimming in the ocean, to rise up to get my bearings.

> I still plan to ask those people who swim this way (sort of) but I haven't
> seen them in a few days. Today there was a young guy who did a kind of
> double wave with his hands right after they entered the water in the forward
> crawl. It reminded me of the way Queen Elizabeth waves by rotating her
> wrist. With him, it appeared he was shaking the water off of his
> hands---underwater. There was an older man there who swam the crawl with his
> entire head out of the water and had to rest at the end of the pool. Looking
> left, looking right, not missing a thing! The young woman with all the pool
> toys showed up, and there was the 80 year old woman who swims without moving
> her legs ("I don't know why I don't move my legs, but I just don't---I used
> to, I remember that."), and a middle-aged woman who swims the crawl straight
> armed until it gets to the rib cage and then she retracts her hand to her
> belly as if it got stung. The usual bunch except for the older woman who
> swims the crawl with her elbow entering the water first. The regular
> crowd....
>
> Pat in TX
>
>

mwsmith

_ wrote:
> On Fri, 16 Nov 2007 17:25:54 -0600, Pat wrote:
>
>> For one, after a hard day of cycling, it helps to work
>>>> out the tightness of my quads and hamstrings.
>>> Ten minutes of stretching would be more efficient for your quads and
>>> hamstrings.
>> No. I am talking about the soreness that comes the next day. I can stretch
>> after cycling or even before, but yesterday I had 5 good-sized hills that
>> left some soreness today.
>>
>>>> I can write more about the Trudgeon stroke later. The natives weren't
>>>> using the flutter kick, according to the book.
>>> The article I read said they were doing crawlstroke. In either case, they
>>> weren't using the sidestroke scissors kick.
>
> Hatfield's 1915 description of the "Trudgeon Crawl Stroke" very clearly
> describes a scissors action, and indicates it is the "trudgeon kick".

No.

No.

I know what the description of Trudgen's stroke say. I'm talking about
what the natives were doing in open water. The article I read said
Trudgen didn't observe their kick correctly. When he returned to
England, the Trudgen stroke was his own interpretation.

No.

No.

mwsmith

Thad Smith wrote:
> mwsmith wrote:
>> Pat wrote:
>>> As to the original question, the answer is, yes, the sidestroke was
>>> used in competition. I find it interesting that evidently in those
>>> days the competition was simply who got to the end point first and
>>> whatever stroke was used didn't matter.
>>
>> You can still do that, sort of, in events that are called freestyle.
>> It's not strictly freestyle, but you don't have to swim crawlstroke.
>
> What restrictions are there in competitive freestyle?

Actually, I guess I was thinking of the IM, where the freestyle leg just
can't be one of the other three strokes.