Dave Zabriskie

Crankyfeet

So you're saying that Landis flew low because the UCI would have nailed him if he looked like being a threat to King Lance? Or are you saying that he thought it was pointless to go through the exercise of souping when the best souper was going to beat him anyway?

thunder

the latter. Hypothetically, give the other riders, Basso, Ullrich, Landis, the same resources, they probably could have beaten him. But they did not, and Ullrich, one who could have beaten him at TMobile, never had the drive to.

But, it would have been futile on Phonak, to attempt to unseat Armstrong, without a stronger team, and better medical support.

Crankyfeet

So what's wrong with second and a podium spot? I just can't imagine Floyd backing down from a chance to go mano-a-mano with Lance. He had nothing to lose. And it wasn't as if they were best friends at the time. Even if he managed to only beat him on a couple of climbing stages or a time trial. He couldn't really lose.

I suspect he may have had his "training" interupted by something, or perhaps he wasn't in synch with the Phonak doctors then.

Bro Deal

I am not buying it.

In 2003 Landis suffered from his hip injury. In the 2004 TdF he was very strong in the time trials and the mountains. In 205 he signed with Phonak expecting to be a support rider for Hamilton. Although he had never been a team leader before, he did very well at the TdF. He was on track to take fifth or sixth overall until he suffered some weakness in the second set of mountains but still ended up in the top ten. In 2006 Armstrong, Ullrich, Basso, Mancebo, and Vino were gone. His win in 2006 was not unexpected. As soon as the OP riders were tossed, I told people on this forum that Landis would win. Before OP I was predicting a podium

I don't think Landis was doing anything different in 2006 as he was in 2005--or 2004 for that matter.

__________________
"You are like the wind and I like the lion. You form the tempest. The sand stings my eyes and the ground is parched. I roar in defiance but you do not hear. But between us there is a difference. I, like the lion, must remain in my place. While you like the wind will never know yours." -- Mulay Hamid El Raisuli, Lord of the Riff, Sultan to the Berbers, Last of the Barbary Pirates

Crankyfeet

Well it does seem implausible that he would only start doping properly in 2006. However, he may not have been on the full program as a domestique before. With the covert operations required to transport blood bags around etc..

But how do you explain his huge form gains at the start of the 2006 season?

Bro Deal

I don't see it as a huge gain in form. Landis is a classy rider. His VO2Max has been measured at 90. Armstrong was worried in 2005 because he knew Landis' VO2Max was higher than his. I tend to believe Landis. The 2005 Tour was a key race. It was the first time he had been able to ride for himself with team support. He and his coach learned a lot. I think that was where they determined that it was possible that he could win the Tour. He adjusted his training and maybe adjusted his doping program also.

He is known to train very intensely. That is not just coming from him. Former teammates and people who have trained with him say the same thing. In Spring of this year he was out of shape at a MTB charity race. He got chicked. While touring the country to promote his book, he could not have been doing much training. He then shows up in Colorado to do Leadville and spent just a few weeks training for it. Rumors with locals are that he was doing 150 mile road rides at altitude. At PB100 he smoked the course and broke the course record. I found that really damned impressive. He must have trained his ass off in those few weeks.

Phonak was ending support, so there was a motivation to get results early in the 2006 season. The competition at California and Georgia is not very good compared to European races. Landis took second in Georgia the year before. He only had to beat two or three other riders of the caliber of Tommy D.. Landis' win in P-N was good, but it did not require him to be much better than he was in the previous year's Tour. Landis got good results but I am not convinced he took some giant, dope fueled leap above where he was the year before. It might have just meant he planned to peak in the Spring as well as July.

__________________
"You are like the wind and I like the lion. You form the tempest. The sand stings my eyes and the ground is parched. I roar in defiance but you do not hear. But between us there is a difference. I, like the lion, must remain in my place. While you like the wind will never know yours." -- Mulay Hamid El Raisuli, Lord of the Riff, Sultan to the Berbers, Last of the Barbary Pirates

thunder

Bro is probably right on this.

screw you BRO!

Crankyfeet

Well, at least Aussies have the humility to admit they're wrong.

[BTW thunder...WTF are you doing??...I followed you down this garden path expecting a motherlode of researched wisdom to be regurgitated at this juncture, and you come out with a limp dick response like that. How is an ignoramus like me going to save face backing up someone who knows something like you (at least I thought you did) if you end up throwing your hands up like this?.... Just fake it, even if you know you're wrong......Ha..ha.. And BTW....Bro is never wrong - so stick to arguing with the other numbskulls]

thunder

in my defense, Landis sucked as a mtn'b'er

I wonder why. He was not world class there.

VO2Max of nearly 90 does not a rider make.

Walker of Rabobank has about 93, and Cadel Evans is about 92, Mcgee was high 80's, think he is about 83 now. O'Grady tested at 91.

But it, the testing and its results, can vary, depending on the lab and equipment.

Crankyfeet

Yes especially when you are talking about a few percent. And all the riders are using whatever figure came out the highest on possibly multiple tests.

Crankyfeet

From Cyclingfansanonymous blog:



Seems like Dave Z may have a touch of the ADD.

Powerful Pete

Bro, I think you hit it right on the head. The programme and training were developed over several years, and with the experience and team support Landis won it in 2006. Unfortunately he then proceeded to get caught...

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jimmypop

If Landis has a VMax of 90, then I'll disassemble my bike and eat it, piece by piece.

I'm not doubting his ability to train and his dedication, but where was his superior physiology when he was a mid-pack MTB'er?

thunder

he was a talented responder. Under a year or two of 20 thousand mile years under the course of a comprehensive medical program, he might have develop to 90.

Klinger said he popped HGH like Skittles.