Page 2 - Astana will ride Treks

13-12.-2007, 09:51 AM

#16

No_Positives

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Re: Astana will ride Treks

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bro Deal

Armstrong's six positives for EPO

umm, I think you mean "zero positives for EPO."

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Lance Armstrong’s Last Words, August 10, 2007 - “We're proud of our record. We won eight Tours, a Vuelta, a Giro and other races and not one positive test," Armstrong said. “I’m not sure if there are many other teams who can say that right now. Couple that with our ethical record, despite all the gossip and nonsense that goes on.”

13-12.-2007, 09:57 AM

#17

Crankyfeet

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Re: Astana will ride Treks

Quote:

Originally Posted by No_Positives

umm, I think you mean "zero positives for EPO."

Nah..it was 6 independent positives. Its only for convictions that you need to have B sample back-ups, which unfortunately weren't kept in this case.

But we all know that the odds of 6 separate samples testing positive in a blind test and all later found to be Armstrong's, and for those tests to all have errors and be false-positives, is about 10 trillion to one against.

So, he was using EPO in 1999, but there was no test then for EPO, and now its only a technicality on the lack of a B sample being available for confirmation, that he is able to spin more lies to his increasingly dwindling band of devoted followers.

But let's not let the troll hijack the thread. Anyone know what BMC are doing next season?

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Last edited by Crankyfeet : 13-12.-2007 at 10:04 AM.

13-12.-2007, 11:05 AM

#18

serpico7

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Posts: 196

Re: Astana will ride Treks

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crankyfeet

Nah..it was 6 independent positives. Its only for convictions that you need to have B sample back-ups, which unfortunately weren't kept in this case.

The positives came from B samples. The A samples were discarded after testing negative, which of course they would, because there was no EPO test back in 1999. AFAIK, the UCI declined to confirm that those are LA's samples. But the paper that matched the samples to the rider and broke the story, L'Equipe, is not the tabloid paper that LA's spin machine makes it out to be.

13-12.-2007, 11:14 AM

#19

Crankyfeet

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Re: Astana will ride Treks

Quote:

Originally Posted by serpico7

Ahh...that makes sense. Thanks. Same effect though.

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13-12.-2007, 12:45 PM	#20
Bro Deal Registered User Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Resting by the Tumtum tree Posts: 6,320	Re: Astana will ride Treks I will laugh my ass off if Bruyneel, Trek, and Fastana do not get a TdF invite. __________________ "You are like the wind and I like the lion. You form the tempest. The sand stings my eyes and the ground is parched. I roar in defiance but you do not hear. But between us there is a difference. I, like the lion, must remain in my place. While you like the wind will never know yours." -- Mulay Hamid El Raisuli, Lord of the Riff, Sultan to the Berbers, Last of the Barbary Pirates

13-12.-2007, 01:02 PM

#21

Crankyfeet

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Re: Astana will ride Treks

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bro Deal

I will laugh my ass off if Bruyneel, Trek, and Fastana do not get a TdF invite.

That's impossible. Bruyneel is now the Michael Corleone of Pro cycling teams. McQuaid would have a better chance of swimming to the surface of Lake Geneva wearing concrete boots than keeping the Bruyneel-Trek-Astana brigade out of the TdF.

And I'm sure Astana would never stoop to anything backhanded/underhanded if they needed to. But its wrong of me to judge when I know so little.

I'll make a bet that they get to ride in the TdF though Bro. I'll even give you odds.

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14-12.-2007, 01:47 AM

#22

donrhummy

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Re: Astana will ride Treks

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bro Deal

You mean aside from Benoit Jaochim, Armstrong's six positives for EPO and one for corticosteroids, ex-riders who have confessed, the soigneur who confessed, and other teammates who have talked about Postal/Disco's injections and blood doping? Gosh, they must be clean.

I suppose Virenque must have been be clean also.

I never said they didn't use drugs (re-read my post) I simply said they were never caught. And Armstrong's "positive EPO" tests were discounted by a third party hired by the UCI/French lab!! That's right. THEY hired him and he said there was no proof that the samples really belonged to Lance and/or were not tampered with. So, that's not a positive test.

Again, i am not saying he didn't use, simply that it has never been proven.

14-12.-2007, 02:11 AM

#23

Leafer

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Join Date: Apr 2006

Posts: 229

Re: Astana will ride Treks

Quote:

Originally Posted by donrhummy

If you're referring to the Vrijman "investigation" and "report", well, that's just funny.

14-12.-2007, 02:48 AM

#24

Wayne666

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Join Date: Jun 2007

Posts: 443

Re: Astana will ride Treks

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leafer

If you're referring to the Vrijman "investigation" and "report", well, that's just funny.

I agree, the Vrijman provided no legitimate reasons to discount the apparent fact that 6 of Armstrong's samples from the '99 Tour had exogenous EPO in them. What it did was point out that the proper protocols weren't followed to declare an adverse analytical finding, which we all knew anyway as the lab never intended to follow the protocols.

14-12.-2007, 04:44 AM

#25

Bro Deal

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Re: Astana will ride Treks

Quote:

Originally Posted by donrhummy

And Armstrong's "positive EPO" tests were discounted by a third party hired by the UCI/French lab!! That's right. THEY hired him and he said there was no proof that the samples really belonged to Lance and/or were not tampered with.

Uh, no. Vrijman, a lawyer who defends dopers, was not hired by the French lab. He was hired purely by the UCI, which was upset that they were being blamed for leaking Armstrong's test results. Vrijman's job was to do a hatchet job on LNDD and WADA. He did not want to talk to the French lab. He deliberately failed to go through the proper protocol (similar to the U.S.'s Freedom of Information Act) to obtain information from the lab and instead relied mostly on second hand information. Similarly he did not make any effort to obtain primary information from WADA. WADA on its own sent some info to Vrijman when WADA realized that he was not going to make an attempt to find anything that would explain WADA's side of the matter; Vrijman did no followup and there is no indication that he even read the WADA material.

The Vrijman report was a whitewash of Armstrtong's dope use and an attack by the UCI on its perceived enemy, WADA. What role the money that Armstrong's paid to the UCI played is unexplained.

__________________
"You are like the wind and I like the lion. You form the tempest. The sand stings my eyes and the ground is parched. I roar in defiance but you do not hear. But between us there is a difference. I, like the lion, must remain in my place. While you like the wind will never know yours." -- Mulay Hamid El Raisuli, Lord of the Riff, Sultan to the Berbers, Last of the Barbary Pirates

14-12.-2007, 06:56 AM

#26

homeycheese

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Re: Astana will ride Treks

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bro Deal

I have been thinking that perhaps the fans should let the sponsors feel the heat. I used to recommend Trek to people who ask me what type of bike they should buy. Lots of shops carry them, they have (had) traditional non-compact designs, and they were reasonably priced for the quality. But now Trek as gone to ugly sloped top tubes and it seems like half their bikes are named "Madone". The continued support of Johan "The Hog" Bruyneel is the final straw.

From now on I intend to not recommend Treks to anyone.

The sponsor could end this doping shit if they wanted to. It is time to hold them accountable.

Please don't show your ignorance and confuse Treks deal with them being the primary sponsor of this cycling team, that's Astana. It's business and Trek is in the business of selling bikes. They're a big company with multiple products lines (Trek, Gary Fisher, Lemond, Klein, Bontrager) and they understand the players their working with.

If you and your kangaroo court want to boycott any product used by a discredited doper, then be careful, you may be out of equipment soon.

As for holding anyone accountable, the only way to do that is to remove the $$$ from the equation. That means give up the sport as you know it today. Give up your magazines, your expensive knock-off team kits, your enhanced technology, this forum and the ability to see any major tour coverage through mass media. As long as we live in a pay for play world and we have discretionary income that can be used to avail ourselves of this "entertainment" there will always be human beings looking to game the system.

I for one have another reason today to stay away from Major League Baseball and put my discretionary entertainment dollars to use somewhere else, like buying a new Madone in Astana blue, assuming it comes with an IV port

14-12.-2007, 07:08 AM

#27

Leafer

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Re: Astana will ride Treks

Quote:

Originally Posted by homeycheese

I have no problem with holding corporations responsible to some degree for the athletes that they choose to be associated with. Trek clearly doesn't care less if Bruyneel's boys are doping, just so long as they win while riding their bikes, regardless of what it does to the sport. If that's their attitude, then I have no problem with people, myself included, saying to them in return that they will never spend another dime on a Trek product.

Last edited by Leafer : 14-12.-2007 at 07:17 AM.

14-12.-2007, 07:48 AM

#28

homeycheese

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Re: Astana will ride Treks

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leafer

Why stop there?

By your logic, since Nike, Giro, Sidi, Giardano, Continental, Shimano, Campy, and on and on and on...are all sponsors of doping teams, doping riders, the publications you read and the broadcasts you watch, then you should hold them accountable as well. Obviously "they" don't care about this sport either, do they?

Or is that you just have a hard-on for a specific group of players in this sordid matter and like any other sport, whether football or wrestling or NASCAR, you're "team" is never as bad as "their" team?

14-12.-2007, 08:20 AM

#29

Bro Deal

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Re: Astana will ride Treks

Quote:

Originally Posted by homeycheese

So what you are saying is that Trek knows they are supporting dopers but the fans should ignore it? Screw that. As long as money continues to flow to those who refuse to stop the doping then the situation will never change. Relying on do gooders like Vaughters to cause change is a pipe team. He can provide an example but the rest of the teams need to be pushed. Threaten the money and the teams will be forced to change or be forced out of the sport.

There are many sponsors who have stuck with the French teams. Riis set up his anti-doping program when he feared losing sponsorship. T-Mobile was the one that insisted on change at its team. Soem sponsors have been willing to support Team Slipstream. The sponsors will make or break any attempt to clean the sport up. It is time to reward sponsors that support the fight against doping and punish sponsors that support the other side.

In the past I have gone out of my way to purchase goods from companies that sponsor cycling teams. No longer. Now I will go out of my way to not purchase or recommend products from any company that sponsors a team that I perceive as circumventing the rules against doping.

The wrath of Bro has been unleashed.

14-12.-2007, 08:20 AM

#30

Leafer

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Join Date: Apr 2006

Posts: 229

Re: Astana will ride Treks

Quote:

Originally Posted by homeycheese

There's quite a difference between a company actively benefiting from a particular team that they know from long years of direct experience has run a doping program and those, like publishers and broadcasters, that approach the sport with an assumption that its clean and who get burned by dopers once in a while. If Trek wants to be that cynical, screw 'em, I'll buy a BMC instead. At least they had the decency to make a show of disgust with being associated with dopers instead of being eager to work with them.

Quote:

Or is that you just have a hard-on for a specific group of players in this sordid matter and like any other sport, whether football or wrestling or NASCAR, you're "team" is never as bad as "their" team?

I used to have favorites, but these days, when it comes to cycling, I try to support those who I think are trying to do the right thing. And so, yeah, my "team" ain't nearly as bad as Bruyneel's.

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