Zone 3 Syndrome

BullGod

You're right. Although Sweet Spot is of course wholly quantifiable - for me it is often based on "feeling" both during and after. That way I can be sure to track the progress. It's also of course possible to use HR as a guide to plot against wattage. Maybe week 1 you are putting out an avge of 260w for 2 hours at "sweet spot" with an HR of 135 but in Week 4 the same HR (and feel of exertion) gets you 280w average. Of course you get this result if you ignore the wattage and go by feel a bit too. I was hoping that when you see this starting to happen FTP is creeping up as well??

Bear in mind also that more than half of the 20 hours is LSD. One thing that has really made the difference for me is spinning a very rapid cadence. The legs just don't seem to hurt, and the HR and breathing rate seem slightly higher, hopefully giving me some good duration in the physical state where I will make advances on aerobic fitness, without filling my legs up with lactic. Getting used to long periods at higher cadence never does any harm.

Of course I won't know for sure what improvements I have made in FTP until I start training L4 in february (and start racing), and then hopefully a few weeks of L5 and 6 will drag it up further, but I have the feeling that high volume, lower intensity, high cadence is really helping.

Most of my teammates are sticking only to high duration / low intensity - the group rides are REALLY slow. However - I have seen these guys blitzing it in mid season. To me it seems risky to only do long / slow, so I do some moderate SST on the sly in the week - (typically a longer workout - up to 3 hours at cadence of 95+ - unique form of discomfort - like nothing I have yet experienced on a bike). I don't really see the need to target L4 just yet, and certainly no 5 or 6. Even when immediately prior to season start I won't be doing any more than 3 "intensive" training sessions a week (including races), but will ride 6 days a week (working part time from next week) Half of my training will still be LSD and Recovery.

I want to be able to deliver quality on my intervals, and not just repetition. I want to be well rested when I do them and see them improving. When they stagnate, or when I feel sore and not motivated to push them out I'll go back to riding easy and SST.

There is no real scientific theory behind my training ideas, purely what I think will work for me. And I have made virtually every mistake possible to make - including spending as much time as physically possible in L4, 5 and 6 five days a week from November to March. That got me dropped in the first race of the year and a liver disorder.

frenchyge

Dang! I was hoping it was middle-age, life commitments and limited training time instead.

FWIW, I didn't say he should feel tired, but for me when my legs start feeling really happy then I can tell it's time to retest. Inevitably, the test shows that an FTP adjustment is warranted (or even overdue). Even for "sweet spot" training one needs to know when the reference point moves, but I'm certainly no coach.


Awesome! Keep up the good work and best of luck to him.

frenchyge

Absolutely. No matter what method you use to track it, as long as the effort/load stays slightly ahead of the body, you're keeping a slight upward pressure.


Definitely. When you get ready to hit it, you'll feel strong as hell. Good luck.

BullGod

From what I gather, racing in the elites means you can't really do much intense training in season. Those races totally destroy you. A classic is long and draining and a crit is pretty much upper L4 plus all the 5 and 6 you can handle without dying.

You race every week at least once, and when your form runs out you rest, go back to basics, top up your base and then race again.

This must be why everytime I have seen a local semi pro out training they've been on the inner chainring

It seems to me that very few higher level riders are allowed (or allow themselves) to undergo too many extensive training periods for specific targeted events. It seems to me a case of "get out there and ride!"

I know that a typical week for me in a few months might be saturday: 180km classic, sunday: 90km Crit, wednesday: 120km Kermesse, Saturday: 175km Classic etc.

I don't see it as either possible or wise to be doing anything other than L1 / 2 on the "days off" ??

A guy I know who has ridden elite for many years told me "we don't get overtrained, we get overraced"....

I guess the racing will hurt you more than you can ever hurt yourself in training. Doing "hard" training over and above racing might be way too tough to maintain and counter productive.

Spunout

Test regularly. Even a 20 minute interval, adjust to FTP, whatever, just stick to the protocol. 20 minutes every 3 weeks won't hurt, and you'll have some good data to back up your plan.

BullGod

that's a great idea. Unfortunately the KK computer just stopped working.

Might just mount a speedo on the rear wheel and work by speed to monitor improvement.

kopride

There used to be some mph to watts conversions around here that folks would mount on their handlebars

wiredued

BG likes a KPH version

28 =192.20w
28.1 =193.61w
28.2 =195.03w
28.3 =196.46w
28.4 =197.89w
28.5 =199.34w
28.6 =200.79w
28.7 =202.24w
28.8 =203.71w
28.9 =205.18w
29 =206.67w
29.1 =208.16w
29.2 =209.66w
29.3 =211.16w
29.4 =212.68w
29.5 =214.20w
29.6 =215.73w
29.7 =217.27w
29.8 =218.81w
29.9 =220.37w
30 =221.93w
30.1 =223.50w
30.2 =225.08w
30.3 =226.67w
30.4 =228.27w
30.5 =229.87w
30.6 =231.49w
30.7 =233.11w
30.8 =234.74w
30.9 =236.38w
31 =238.03w
31.1 =239.68w
31.2 =241.35w
31.3 =243.02w
31.4 =244.70w
31.5 =246.39w
31.6 =248.09w
31.7 =249.80w
31.8 =251.52w
31.9 =253.24w
32 =254.98w
32.1 =256.72w
32.2 =258.47w
32.3 =260.23w
32.4 =262.00w
32.5 =263.78w
32.6 =265.57w
32.7 =267.36w
32.8 =269.17w
32.9 =270.98w
33 =272.81w
33.1 =274.64w
33.2 =276.48w
33.3 =278.33w
33.4 =280.19w
33.5 =282.06w
33.6 =283.94w
33.7 =285.83w
33.8 =287.73w
33.9 =289.63w
34 =291.55w
34.1 =293.48w
34.2 =295.41w
34.3 =297.36w
34.4 =299.31w
34.5 =301.27w
34.6 =303.24w
34.7 =305.23w
34.8 =307.22w
34.9 =309.22w
35 =311.23w
35.1 =313.25w
35.2 =315.28w
35.3 =317.32w
35.4 =319.37w
35.5 =321.43w
35.6 =323.50w
35.7 =325.58w
35.8 =327.67w
35.9 =329.77w
36 =331.88w
36.1 =334.00w
36.2 =336.13w
36.3 =338.26w
36.4 =340.41w
36.5 =342.57w
36.6 =344.74w
36.7 =346.92w
36.8 =349.11w
36.9 =351.31w
37 =353.52w
37.1 =355.74w
37.2 =357.97w
37.3 =360.21w
37.4 =362.46w
37.5 =364.72w
37.6 =366.99w
37.7 =369.27w
37.8 =371.56w
37.9 =373.87w
38 =376.18w
38.1 =378.50w
38.2 =380.84w
38.3 =383.18w
38.4 =385.53w
38.5 =387.90w
38.6 =390.28w
38.7 =392.66w
38.8 =395.06w
38.9 =397.47w
39 =399.88w
39.1 =402.32w
39.2 =404.76w
39.3 =407.21w
39.4 =409.67w
39.5 =412.14w
39.6 =414.63w
39.7 =417.12w
39.8 =419.63w
39.9 =422.14w
40 =424.67w
40.1 =427.21w
40.2 =429.76w
40.3 =432.32w
40.4 =434.89w
40.5 =437.48w
40.6 =440.07w
40.7 =442.68w
40.8 =445.29w
40.9 =447.92w
41 =450.56w
41.1 =453.21w
41.2 =455.87w
41.3 =458.55w
41.4 =461.23w
41.5 =463.93w
41.6 =466.64w
41.7 =469.36w
41.8 =472.09w
41.9 =474.83w
42 =477.58w
42.1 =480.35w
42.2 =483.12w
42.3 =485.91w
42.4 =488.71w
42.5 =491.52w
42.6 =494.35w
42.7 =497.18w
42.8 =500.03w
42.9 =502.89w
43 =505.76w
43.1 =508.64w
43.2 =511.54w
43.3 =514.44w
43.4 =517.36w
43.5 =520.29w
43.6 =523.24w
43.7 =526.19w
43.8 =529.16w
43.9 =532.14w
44 =535.13w
44.1 =538.13w
44.2 =541.14w
44.3 =544.17w
44.4 =547.21w
44.5 =550.26w
44.6 =553.33w
44.7 =556.40w
44.8 =559.49w
44.9 =562.59w
45 =565.71w
45.1 =568.83w
45.2 =571.97w
45.3 =575.12w
45.4 =578.28w
45.5 =581.46w
45.6 =584.65w
45.7 =587.85w
45.8 =591.06w
45.9 =594.29w
46 =597.53w
46.1 =600.78w

__________________
Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. http://www.earnharts.com/html/reala...ecific.asp?id=3

frenchyge

Don't you have an elite version?

wiredued

I think the range will cover his FTP

__________________
Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. http://www.earnharts.com/html/reala...ecific.asp?id=3

BullGod

A point of interest for me is something i heard from a Belgian pro - he said his FTP in mid winter is about 280 - but he can beat that by 100 by May. He also said he does 4-5 hr rides at 25-28kph all winter, after a month off the bike in october.

I think many guys here on the forum have a year round FTP higher than 280, but few would ever get to 380, despite training L4 way more often than this fella.

For me that suggests, at least as far as top end competition is concerned, that Base training then intensity trumps year round FTP training.

Note I said "as far as top end competition is concerned" - I'm sure if you have limited time to train, aren't recovering from a gruelling season and preparing for a new one it might well be more prudent to train at reasonable intensity for much of the year.

To be honest, I would sh*t myself if my FTP went below 300 any time of the year!

daveryanwyoming

A few thoughts come to mind. First, he's a european professional rider, few forum members can claim that and the talent, years of training and focused comittment to the sport implied. Doubt he has another job or fits his cycling around other pursuits.

Secondly, you say he does "Base then intensity" I take it you mean LSD base which wouldn't be surprising for a full time professional athlete competing in classics and long events. If so, how do you suppose he assesses his winter FTP? If he's not doing 2x20s or other L4 work that time of year how do you suppose he comes up with his 280 watt number? I suppose he could be doing some winter testing, but that implies at least some winter intensity above LSD base work.

Not doubting his claims or his path to racing success, just that it doesn't necessarily apply to a lot of folks that frequent these forums. I'm sure LSD followed by intensity can work(it has for many years in pro circuits) for folks with the time to train and recover and with a full time commitment to cycling. The question is whether that approach is as effective for working folks and amateurs.

-Dave

frenchyge

FTP, sure. I was thinking of L5/L6 intervals.

Edit: ok, let's say L6.

frenchyge

That was kinda my question as well. I usually end up taking 6-10 weeks off the bike at the end of the summer, and as a result have to take a stab at my FTP when I resume training in late fall. That stab gets refined a little using PE and an occassional hard interval after a few trainer rides, and I usually settle on an FTP that's about 12-15% below the season peak. I'd be truly amazed to see someone's FTP drop by over 25% after a month off the bike. Maybe mental factors (burnout) are contributing to that drop as well.

As for the folks on this forum, I'd guess that many still see themselves in the building period of their cycling lives and that fuels the desire to keep the pressure on. Also, most probably don't race/ride enough to really burn out by the end of the year and actually enjoy continuing to train during the winter. Either way, it's all good.