Okay, so lets hear about those intervals !

daveryanwyoming

Which will manifest themselves as watts.
From that standpoint, it's duration and intensity of intervals and how they relate to specific metabolic processes that matter. IOW, do minute long max effort intervals and you'll develop your ability to produce power anaerobically via anaerobic glycolocis. Great thing to have in your bag of tricks but only relevent to hills if they take less than a couple of minutes to climb.

Do some 3 to 8 minute best effort intervals and you'll stress your VO2 Max range and your ability to produce power at the top end of your aerobic range burning primarily sugars(glycogen, blood glucose and blood lactate) in the presence of oxygen. Good for slightly longer hills but not major climbs.

Do some 10 to 45 minute efforts at a steady sustainable intensity and you'll develop your core ability to burn sugars and fats aerobically. This is your best bet for improving your climbing or time trial abilities.

Do long intervals a bit easier but throw in some microinterval bursts and you'll get sustainable power but also work on your ability to recruit additional muscle fibers on demand. Or as has been discussed here before an L4 workout with an L7 twist. L7 focusing on the neuro portion of neuromuscular or IOW training your ability quickly utilize your muscles to acelerate. You won't build great big muscles nor will you be likely to improve your 5 second sprint power with these intervals but they can help a lot for things like repetitively jumping out of crit corners.

Anyway, there are lots of intervals but they should each target a specific need and specific adaptation. Getting back to my original post in this thread they should also be tailored to a rider's strengths and weaknesses and be used at an appropriate place in the annual schedule.

I see your needs are different in terms of leading spin classes to an assortment of folks with differing experiences, training bases and goals. You've got to keep them interesting and SST work is tough to market regardless of its training benefits. That's more or less why I stayed out of this thread, but if we're talking about competitive cyclists in training then any discussion of intervals should be held in a context of why and when.

Not arguing either, just that for the sake of a Cycling Training forum it's pretty important to understand why different intervals work, what they work on and when a rider might want to use one protocol over another. Just being hard or fun doesn't really mean much if you want to train in a structured way and one size rarely fits all.

-Dave

edd

That is a such a good offer, I'm not going to stab at a short reply, It's morning here and I have work to attend too. I'm going to think on this and elaborate on the significance of specificity.

edd

I'm trying with some success to turn a dilema into a delight. Classes are 30% of my training volume.

Miscreant

I think the whole idea behind, "do hill repeats if you want to get better at hills" is mostly the mental aspect of going up hills. People underestimate the mental part of endurance sports. I think maybe a teeny bit of doing lots of hills has to do with the support muscles that you use when you stand up and push up a hill, as opposed to just creating that same power on a trainer (arms,core).

edd

Never have mental problem with hills … I'm just not as talented or as well trained at the bloke who passes me. I don't care about the hurting, I care about the fact the legs just won't do it !!!!!!!

frenchyge

Well, I can't argue against using the actual experience as practice. I'm sure riding through wind, deserts, rain, or forests is also very good practice for improving in those situations as well.

As far as the argument that riding up hills might be the *only good* way to get better, I'd guess it's a holdover from pre-powermeter days when there was really just no way for riders to quantify the effort of going uphill and translate that to an indoor experience.

Aside from some minor inertial differences (which are actually smaller going uphill than riding on the flats), I really don't see why hill training on an ergometer or computrainer should be any less beneficial than actual hill repeats. In practice, I'd bet they are more beneficial since you can dial up any length and gradient you choose and don't have to deal with all those pesky descents.

kopride

Exactly. I am too much of a computer moron to convert my power agent files so that I can post them, (and haven't invested in cycling peaks yet) but there is no discernable difference between the power profile of a "hill" interval indoors or out. And yes, you can generally similulate a "longer" interval indoors because on a real hill, it is difficult to achieve the same power levels while descending from the top of a hill, even with your 11 or 12 teeth cog. So from a practical point, outdoors, the hill interval ends at the "top," when you have to start to descend (unless you are climbing to the top of a plataeu and can stretch it out, by shifting to smaller cogs). Indoors, it ends when you want it to.

A Watt is a Watt. I think that most of us have problems duplicating power indoors because we don't dissapate our own heat as well indoors at 0 mph, as we do on the road at 15-23 mph, but I believe that we are essentially getting the same metabolic effect. My guess is that the power levels would drop down the same outdoors if you were riding in extreme heat. The power differences are usually less than 5%, and with proper fans and ventilation, you can get real close. Coping with boredom indoors is another factor

frenchyge

True, but depending on how finely you want to split things, the application of force can be different between the two, which could affect muscle recruitment, joint angles when firing occurs, etc. I'm not saying that makes a discernible difference, but since I'm not aware that it's been thoroughly studied the possibility certainly exists. That's where the "it's just not the same" arguments typically end up, from what I've seen.


You might find this interesting if you haven't already seen it.

http://www.cyclingpeakssoftware.com/power411/quad.asp

kopride

That is interesting. And is a real incentive to jumping on the cycling peaks train. I have just been using the Saris software, and it looks like I am missing out on some of the better tools. I store my data on my kids computer b/c it is down the basement near my trainer but that computer is not hooked up to the internet to download the software. Looks like I will have to switch computers to store the data.

edd

a difference is a difference is a difference …

Sportsman in all types of sports are generally better now because of training tools

… I think the optimum is to do both indoor and outdoor for the best reasons. Indoor work can be uninterrupted, controlled and regular. Outdoor work can be application specific.

The original questions: are there intervals that are better outside and are there intervals that are better on a trainer ?

I just gave hill work as an example which spiraled out in this direction.

frenchyge

I disagree. There are plainly big differences and small differences -- all differences are by no means equal, as you state. However, if you're trying to say that any difference, no matter how small, is intolerable, then I suppose you only ride on hills and roads that you intend to use during races since anything else wouldn't be specific? Seems a little extreme.

So, what intervals are better indoors?
For me, any interval over 1 minute is better indoors because of the rolling terrain here. There is one place that I can do a relatively isopower 5-min interval, but that involves me making a right turn through a stop sign at about 20mph. Plus, the rest intervals are longer than I prefer because I have to roll back to the starting point before I can start again.

Intervals better outdoors-
Sprints repeats of 30 seconds or less, and hill repeats of 1 minutes or less, because I like the greater inertia of riding outdoors and don't have to worry about tire slip on the road. There are a few hills here that are longer than 1 minute, but the extra distance isn't really worth the trip.

kopride

Is it "rolling" out there in Kansas if all the hills are less than a minute "Rolling to me is about 3500 ft gain and 3500 ft descent on about a 2 hour ride. In SE PA, we would call your kind of riding "flat." But I have friends come from out west and laugh at me and say, you call this hilly? So, its all relative. When I ride down the Jersey Shore, the guys are averaging 28+ mph on a flat group ride and the power numbers are high and constant, so the absence of hills doesn't seem to change the intensity of the ride. A great place for intervals if riding solo. More sprints and attacks to spread out the ride, less hills. Fortunately, closer to home, I also can pick up a bike path that runs flat along a river for almost 30 miles, perfect for intervals. I can ride for 5 hours with less than 150 feet of elevation +/-

As Frenchy points out, I think you indoor/outdoor question depends alot on where you live. When I lived in Center City Philadelphia, it took 20 minutes or so before I got out of traffic and could maintain a pace over 8 mph. So, unless you had 90 minutes available, indoor was your only option. If you live at the bottom of Mt Washington, I would think that it would make sense to do hill intervals outside.

IOW, your question seems more dependent on local geography, traffic, weather and time availability, than indoor or out. Those are significant differences in the quality of intervals you can do outdoors. I dont think that the indoor outdoor distinction is a significnat factor.

Miscreant

yes suh. I can't get anything other than a LSD ride out here on Long Island, NY.. between the traffic and non-existence of hills. But Hincapie managed to get somewhere growing up here, so heck i can too!

frenchyge

Yeah, it's all relative. People also come here and say "I thought Kansas was flat!" The hills here aren't particularly tall, but it's a constant undulation, and it's tough to find a flat stretch of road longer than about .5 miles. Also, when I say 1 minute, I mean a 500w, 1-min-interval minute.

Here's the ride my team did last Sunday http://trail.motionbased.com/trail/activity/4777826 . The route wasn't chosen for being a hilly one, but 45 miles and +/-2667' elevation change nonetheless.