Okay, so lets hear about those intervals !

kopride

Hey, what else do you bust a guy from Kansas on? And, I agree that those rollers can hurt you just as much as the longer steeper climbs. Hills are largely a function of watts/kg. The bigger boys are always going to have problems on the longer steeper climbs where Newton three laws control.

As an aside, there were some scientific research that proved that Kansas is indeed "flatter than a pancake." So don't blame me for the slander.
http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2003/jul/27/holy_hotcakes_study/

frenchyge

I'm not taking offense. I agree it's flat from top to bottom, but all those little nooks and crannies can really get you if you're not ready. Around here, the slightly-bigger guys with high AC can use their momentum and deep energy reserves to really bring the pain for short, steep rollers. We're rarely climbing long enough at any one time for the lightweights to control things.

Of course, we have the rivers and lots of creeks which provide some bigger (for us) climbs. I get the impression that the Texas folks are the ones who truly need overpasses to get any elevation change.

But, back to outdoor intervals, I think the further I'm riding from my perceived 'limit' the more I can tolerate some dips in my power. For example I can do 3x30 intervals at UL3-LL4 outdoors because I feel like I can always make up for any momentary dips with a short extra-effort later. For L5 intervals, once that avg drops it stays down, because I'm already gasping to hold on.

Thanks for that reminder for those of us that can't affort a Computrainer -- just in case we'd forgotten.

daveryanwyoming

+1 on this frenchyge!

It took me a while to figure this out. If I'm setting out to do an SST or L4 effort I can start a bit lower and ramp up or manage a short drop in power for traffic outdoors. But if I'm trying to hit a PB L5 interval I've got to get a good warmup and nail the effort from the start. There's no headroom for making up power late in the effort when I'm already suffering by minute 3 in a 5 minute effort.

-Dave

Felt_Rider

I can't think of a place in my area that I could do formal intervals outdoors.

We have the Silver Comet, which is a rails to trails pathway, but with pedestrians, cyclists, and the occasional road intersection it was much more difficult to perform the intervals that I desire. If it were not for the other individuals it would be a great place to do intervals in the longer stretches between car intersections.

On the link above and looking at the speed page you can see how many interruptions as the speed would drop down to near 0 mph to pass individuals or to wait at an intersection.

The place I do most of my club rides is all road intersections and there are not any good stretches of roadway to do intervals.

For me the most predictable and reliable place is indoors.

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Felt_Rider

......and Florida / Alabama coast line

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kopride

Yep. I don't go near our rail trail bike paths, which are plentiful and nearby, unless it is early morning or lunchtime. They are great for intervals during those times, but otherwise, kids, dogs, rollerbladers . . . definitely not where you want to do intervals. But I can't complain about outdoors out here either. I am a mile from Valley Forge Park, and can ride on a Saturday Morning through senic farmland and not see a car for hours.

My big limiter is time, and that is another place indoors shines. it is just so time efficient.

kopride

Here are our little hills. This was a pretty slow pace because we had a newbie with us. But the route is relentless.

http://trail.motionbased.com/trail/invitation/dashboard.mb?episodePk.pkValue=3694177

rmur17

hey I got mine thru a coaching deal in 2002 for around $750 USD. Best cycling related purchase I ever made. I agree full retail is a lot of cash but then again so are bikes, wheels, power-meters, training camps yadda, yadda...

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jsirabella

That area is quite tough as I remeber riding through it on my way to Baltimore. Chester was a little scary as parts seemed a little run down but you seem to be north of it. I found the toughest part was crossing the susquehanna and I found Delware really hilly on route 2 (I believe). It was right in the middle of the capital.

-Js

jsirabella

I like LI. Whenever I go to Boston I ride through it, all the way to Orient Point and cross at the top into CT. Really pretty and fun to ride...

I know a rider out there who just bought a PM and does one race a year...I think MT. Washington(??). Really crazy steep and was cancelled last year for rain and wind.

-Js

kopride

Your memory is pretty good then. Chester is really run down and nobody would ever ride through it intentionally, unless you were looking to score some smack. But the area on the map is pretty pristine riding and very hilly as you can see from the elevation changes. As you go further west towards the Susquahanna it only gets worse. And the area east of Wilmington is the Brandywine river valley which is no better.

But its No Kansas! On the other hand, its No Mt Washington either!

jsirabella

Wilmington that was where they had a crazy main road which turned into route 2 and was so friggin steep but it just continued to get worse until you crossed the susquehanna and only stopped after you passed gun powder hill(??).

Chester was special indeed...

-Js

edd

I think the whole thing got a bit sideways with the " a watt is a watt is a watt " and my " a difference is a difference is difference " statements

There is no disputing that extra power "watts" is what it takes to make a bike go faster up a hill or into the wind. AND subtle differences are not always a bad thing in training.

I started a thread a while back "should a cyclist run" the overwhelming response was "no" with a few exceptions. I don't need to elaborate on why running is too non specific to help in training a cyclists. The point being is that specificity is really really really important. fitness is very very action / activity / velocity specific. When we climb a steep hill on a bike the force we are fighting is gravity. When we do a TT on a bike the force we are fighting is wind resistance. When we grind away on a trainer we are fighting enhanced rolling resistance. These are subtle differences. I'm not saying one is bad and the other is good, I'm saying there are subtle differences.

The point I would like to make … if you never climbed a hill on a bike and only trained on a indoor trainer you would not be as good a climber as if you also trained on a real hill. The reason be specificity of your training. And I'm talking conditioning here not skill with gears etc.

Excessive specificity is a mistake in training, plateaus, injuries, staleness and lack of "adaptation demand" will result.



The watts you produce on your trainer may not be reproduce on the hill ? A real hill will usually be of varying grade and require different gear selection during the climb. Along with this cadence will also vary. It is here we have to deal with a watt is a watt. 300 watts generated at a cadence of 105 rpm is different to 300 watts generated at a cadence of 75 rpm.

If you run out of gears and have to grind away a cadence of 60 rpm or less the difference are no longer subtle.



I need her phone number, thanks, I'll do my best

frenchyge

I hope your spin-class clients never get wind of that.

My question would be: how do you know? Yes, there are differences, but how do you know that those differences don't make indoor training *better* than hill repeats?

I'm going to guess that the answer is "I don't," but you're right that that's not really relevant to this thread. So, for anyone else following along at home, be sure to also look at some of the other threads on this forum discussing how to get better at climbing hills.