Okay, so lets hear about those intervals !

daveryanwyoming

This has been discussed before on these forums and beerco is on target. The key is half lives of metabolic adaptation. Looking at the AP of the microinterval workouts is valid because your metabolism does not have time to accomodate the higher power level before dropping back down during microintervals.

In fact the NP algorithm does the same thing by applying a 30 second averaging to power samples before raising the terms to the 4th power. You'll get a slightly higher NP during the microintervals described, but it won't bring a workout with an AP in L4 up into L5 unless you were right up against the top of L4 to start with and that's generally not where sustainable microintervals are ridden(or they won't be sustainable).

Can't speak for Ms. Billat's intentions, but it's valid to characterize the primary training focus of microinterval work in terms of the overall AP as long as the microintervals are short relative to the time it takes the body to respond metabolically.

-Dave

edd

Movin on:

And I'm just fishing here. Anyone work on progressive intervals, say doing 5 x 3 min intervals as part of this months training. Then 5 x 3.5 min intervals at same power next month then 4 x 4 min, 3 x 5 min etc.?

edd

I could be wrong but I very much doubt it. You get better at what you do. It's that simple. Do something very similar, You get better at doing something very similar.

I know this just as I know not to go down the club and put mony into a poker machine.

daveryanwyoming

Sure, extending interval time is a great way to increase stress without necessarily jumping to higher power. I do that this time of year with 20 minute intervals extending to 30, 45.. somewhere around 45-55 minutes and I'll bump the power up in the next similar session. Rick got me thinking in terms of playing with the time dimension and it works really well for those mid SST efforts.

Come spring I'll do L5 work just as you suggest starting with 3 minute efforts and extending them to 5 or more minutes before bumping the power up. It's a bit tougher with L6 and L7 work, they're fairly short to start with and I don't want to "water down" L7 sprints, I'd prefer to keep them short sweet and fast.

-Dave

edd

I noted with short max effort indoor sprint interval, that doing too many is not good as it really trashes the legs. Similarly in diminishing degrees do 1 min, 3 min and 5 min intervals. So I always leave them to late in the week (Thursdays) Friday off the bike and am fresh for road ride on Sunday.

I got the feeling reading through this thread that a few bods seem to do a lot of intervals in a seesion.

Depending on intensity of the interval work … for me I do a maximum of 20 mins of a 50 min to 1 hour training session. Any more and I'd show signs of over-training, then again I'm 59, younger guns may handle a larger block and recover quicker.

daveryanwyoming

I used that approach for a long time but do things just the opposite these days. I do my hardest, shortest workouts early in my training week and reduce intensity but increase duration on following days. This time of year it's pretty subtle since I don't do short intervals during winter base building but I'll still do my hardest efforts but shortest workouts early in the week.

I first saw this proposed by Greg Lemond in his book 20 or so years ago but was reluctant to try it. It seemed I might go too hard early in the week and be too tired for decent training later in the week. Well it took me a long time to really give it a go, but I find it works really well to start hard and short and work towards easier and longer. For one thing I do my hardest workout when I'm most fresh. But I also finish each workout knowing my following workout will be easier. That's a big mental advantage late in a training block. I also finish my midweek block with a longer Tempo/low SST session which is easy to recover from which sets me up well for weekend riding or racing.

Like I said it's pretty academic this time of year when I'm only focusing on FTP and CTL but as I transition into preseason prep and then into racing I'll definitely be using a ramp down in intensity but up in duration approach to my weekly training. I know it's counterintuitive and I was skeptical for a long time but I'm amazed at how well this approach works.

YMMV,
-Dave

edd

I'm bound by class timetable for indoor stuff and have conditioned my Sunday afternoon class to do base work and for me a recovery ride… after the mornings road ride, Monday, Wed, Thur, are all spin class stuff (intervals) I choose how hard I work and can work through recovery blocks. Tuesdays are a 30 min recovery spin only at home. Friday is day off. Saturday can either be base work at home or on the road.

I do really need to structure my training more though it is not unstructured now. That said never been as quick on a bike or as fast up a hill as I'm at the moment, better now at 59 then I was at 35.

The most significant thing that has change in my training is I ride less but not less often. I work very hard for very short periods and put in a good three to four hours of uninterrupted road work once a week.

I really do need to focus on building steady state power.

edd

Sorry about that …

The mess looks like this

So if the week starts from the dayoff (Fri)
Saturday easy 1 hr L2 work,
Sunday biggest volume 4 to 5 hrs mix of L2, L3, L4 and L5 work.
Mondays are class intervals for participants I do L2 - L3 work.
Tuesday 30 min L1
Wednesday 50 min L5-L6
Thurdsay 1 hr L4-L5
Friday rest

daveryanwyoming

I'm having trouble following you edd, just last week you posted this in another thread:
and you touted that lower volume schedule as your road to success. Now it seems you're riding a lot more with quite a bit of L5 and some L6 during your typical training week. So is this a new plan you're testing out or what you were doing before dropping to 3 days a week?

Again, I don't know where you are in your annual schedule or if you do any macro periodization (base build, preseason prep, competitive season, recovery) or just work towards the same training year round. But at least here during the winter I wouldn't be doing nearly so much high end work on a weekly basis. Sure the occasional L5 effort to see how I'm doing or to raise my aerobic ceiling and I know folks that do a bit of L6 regularly on the "use it or lose it" philosophy but it seems like your week is weighted pretty heavily in that direction.

'Course if your events are coming up soon or you don't target any particular peaks during the year then I guess it doesn't matter so much. I do recall some mention of the Master's Games later in the year. IIRC those are six to eight months away. If so I'd back off the high end work and do some more core aerobic base building in the L2-L4 range this time of year.

Good luck,
Dave

edd

Testing new work load. Masters games are in October 2009.
Was off the bike Monday, Tuesdays, Fridays Saturdays. Over Christmas I've been doing an additional spin class on Mondays while the club tries to find another instructor. Last few weeks started to do recovery spins 30 min Tuesday mornings, and 1 hr of base-work on Sat … in response to the feed back on that thread you mentioned.

I'm not racing, never raced, but am thinking on it, did TTs every month in 2005. Discovered I suck at TTs not high enough steady state power or steady state in my training at that time.

I was doing 7 hrs of training in the 32 hrs from 6 am Sunday to 8pm Monday and this was too much to recover from so I stopped instructing the double class on Mondays … and I improved and kept improving over the following three months. Hard to tell if improvement is continuing, bods I ride with have been off their bikes for a month and have gained weight/lost fitness.

Time for a power meter … looking at a new bike too, was offered a really really good deal if I get the new bike with the power tap.

As a rule, even though I don't race, I cut the intensity of the entire work load over Jan. Feb. Focus on base-work. Because of spin class instructing I still do a lot of short high intensity intervals but only are a few at actual training intensity.

Wasn't touting lower volume schedule was a road to success. Just it was proving to be successful for me.

I don't think it is possible to do L6 work two days in a row.

rmur17

time is on our side. Or something like that ...

I have to confess that when i got back into training this fall after (for me) quite a break

(Phase 1): I reverted to my nasty OLD, OLD habit of targetting upper L4 in the 15-20MP range rather than FTP. I just couldn't accept I'd lost that much threshold power.

Result: Four weeks of workouts where I *felt* pretty good since I was still pushing 400W albeit for 15min at a time. Progress in this period: NIL despite four to five L4 workouts per week. CTL rose from 65 to maybe 75 ... no movement in workout power/duration.

Analysis: No progress, not sticking to my own training plan, making the 2003-2004 mistakes again.

(Phase 2): Read my own training manual . Decided it wasn't bollocks and dropped the power to 350-360W for my L4 work.

Result: Four weeks of workouts where I *felt* less manly but started to progress in power/duration right away. Working power up around 30W. CTL up 25 pts ....

Analysis: Don't try and re-invent the wheel. Circular is quite good.

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rmur

Ade Merckx

Mmm so Rick what would you recommend for someone who in an FT test hit 300watts and was thinking of moving his 3 x 20's in the 285-310 range up to 295-320. Is that a good move? or should I go 4 x 20 on the former? Cheers

postal_bag

I'm not Rick, but I too am a big SST fan. I would include 1 or 2 workouts a week where you accumulate 80-100' at 275-285 w. Something like 3 x 30', 2 x 40', 1 x 90', etc.

I find that it's important, at least psychologically, to extend past that 20' mark if the intensity of the interval is below FTP. Also I find it important (psychologically) to accumulate more that 60' of total interval time when working at this lower intensity.

rmur17

How much has your FTP risen lately or in this test? Do you feel like you've plateaued in any way on your current routine? How long before you *need* that FTP (race seriously)?

I have only questions: no answers

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rmur