America.....Views from the Road.

Hypnospin

ah, immigrant bashing, a great way to exploit the emotions of the voters and allow politicos to duck the much more substantive issues. for example, it must require all of a a fraction of a percent of the taxpayer-gratis funded bushwars billions (expenditures which primarily serve to transfer wealth to the priveleged few) to provide these humanistic benefits you describe...

as for "illegal" immigrants and the reality of the statisics involved, there are at least 50,000 Irish among them durn undesireable illegals what you done mention here, as of 2006 counts.

but it is always SO easy and convenient to generalize, and point the flag at mexicans, for example, when over 3 million "illegals" (undocumented is a more realistic term, as how can a human being be termed illegal in any acceptable sense?) are of non-latin countries, again from '06 census stats.

i could suggest we also need examine the tendency to value people on the basis of what they earn, as it does not necessarily offer legitimate comparison to what a person contributes...

__________________
"The dogmas of the quiet past are inadequate to the stormy present...As our case is new, so must we think anew and act anew"
Abraham Lincoln, in his address to congress dec. 1st, 1861

limerickman

Muticulturalism and open borders are not the same thing - neither are protectionism and nationalism the same thing.








Bush isn't protectionist.
If you read what Bush says about immigration - he actually supports the idea of immigration.
Most US Presidents in recent times have said that those who emigrate to the states are needed because those jobs that they do, are not being taken up by Americans.







Funny how all these ex-colonial powers are devising tests to stop immigration.

People born in former Dutch colonies are automatically granted Dutch citizenship and are entitled to relocate to Holland (the same applies to people born in ex-british colonies and the UK).

In Holland, as in Germany/France/britain/USA, the economy needs people to do the jobs which the native population will not/cannot do.






Well, I follow British current affairs through TV and newspapers and in respect of teachers, it appears that there is a shortage of teachers in your country........nurses are also in short supply.
Instead of quibbling about the fact that employers have to seek trained staff abroad - the question needs to be asked as to why few British people want to work as teachers/nurses etc.

__________________
.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

Crankyfeet

Errr...not in Hong Kong, before the handover... they weren't...

Good point. Often the important issue is neglected in favour of the hot-button one. Politics and the Media 101.

TheDarkLord

This is probably true in many (or maybe most?) places in the world: short sighted views which will get politicians into power are greatly preferred over any attempt to really understand the issues and get to the root of the problems. This is especially so since the former and the latter seldom overlap, and of course some are just too incompetent to do the latter.

Carrera

"Bush isn't protectionist.If you read what Bush says about immigration - he actually supports the idea of immigration."

That's precisely what I had said. Bush isn't protectionist. He's in favour of exposing his country to economic competition in as much as American companies are encouraged to set up shop overseas. Neither is Bush nationalistic as he presides over as much free immigration as there was under Clinton. But Putin is protectionist. Putin nationalised Russian oil which is what irks Bush so much.

"Muticulturalism and open borders are not the same thing - neither are protectionism and nationalism the same thing."

I don't know how long you can have open borders and liberal immigration till society begins to dramatically change. Certainly you can have open borders for a while but in time there are going to be social political changes. There were dramatic changes to the Roman Empire, for example, between 10 B.C. and 200 A.D.
In the time of Jesus, the Roman army was very much made up of Latins, Romans and Italians and most major Roman cities weren't what you could call multicultural
By 200 A.D. the Roman army was far more diverse as were cities.
By 400 A.D. the Roman army and infrastructure depended purely on immigration to sustain it but that didn't prevent eventual collapse and decline.
In the U.S., you have to admit there have been significant changes too. Since the days of Irish, Anglo, German and European settlers colonising America, the overall population has altered dramatically. America is now almost as diverse as Rome was in 200 A.D.
The Ayn Rand Foundation has this to say on multiculturalism:

"Since cultures are obviously not equal in value—not if man’s life is your standard of value—this egalitarian doctrine can have only one purpose: to raze the mountaintops. Multiculturalism seeks to obliterate the value of a free, industrialized civilization (which today exists in the West and elsewhere), by declaring that such a civilization is no better than primitive tribalism. More deeply, it seeks to incapacitate a mind’s ability to distinguish good from evil, to distinguish that which is life promoting from that which is life negating.
We are opposed to this destructive doctrine. We hold that moral judgment is essential to life. The ideas and values that animate a particular culture can and should be judged objectively. A culture that values freedom, progress, reason and science, for instance, is good; one that values oppression, stagnation, mysticism, and ignorance is not."

__________________
"Everybody has a philosophy. However, what philosophy you have is a matter of choice, and most people don't make a conscious choice with regard to what philosophy they accept."

stevebaby

"Arise, ye workers from your slumbers,
Arise, ye prisoners of want..."
Wolfie's going Bolshie on us!

__________________
Cruel and vicious,but fair.
Drink!Feck!Arrse!Girls!
Nechaevist

Crankyfeet

Let's see now...the biggest food company in the world is located in Arkansas... Tyson Foods.

One of the biggest retailers in the world... Walmart... is situated in Arkansas as well..... Hmmm.....

Billsworld

OH good Idea, lets call them undocumented and just get rid of that silly U.S. Mexican border too. Maybe Mexico will then stop arresting and jailing immigrants on its sothern border. Wait better idea. We can build a free commuter rail starting in Brazil so everyone can come here and be an "undocumented worker" free hospitals and education for all of South and Central America care of U.S. taxpayers. OOPS dont forget Mexico. As far as judging people by what the earn. Not here. More like expecting people to pay for what they use. Your hypnospin math is off a bit too. The real number is 20 million. Lets do the math on what it costs to educate them and give them free medical care. Then look at the giant slap in the face that you give to everyone that has to subsidise this

Carrera

There's a lot of anger in America at present over immigration from Mexico. I have American friends who were always very tolerant and now they come across as really angry about the border situation. Apparently there's a lot of Hispanics in Florida and California to the point Spanish is spoken everywhere. So, I hear.

__________________
"Everybody has a philosophy. However, what philosophy you have is a matter of choice, and most people don't make a conscious choice with regard to what philosophy they accept."

Billsworld

The growing anger isnt so much from the fact that they speak Spanish or any other language (althoughit doesnt help) it is the services that they use for free. How can you ask the average American family to give up half of their income to taxes while they are trying to save for retirement and for their own kids to go to school and then have people using services for free. It is the same argument as welfare. If you hand out free money you will continue to encourage people to breed that cant even take care of themselves. I hear lower and upper middle class families saying they dont want kids or they only want one or two. The families that work and are educated are having fewer children because they are forced to raise the childrem of people that are not capable of doing so. As the the rest of the world wonders why the U.S. has become more fat , lazy , stupid and violent .

Carrera

It's the same thing here. To be honest, I just think the whole system is on its last legs and it won't change till we start having accountable politicians who have proper leadership training. It's no good getting into leadership positions on the basis of a degree in sociology or English drama yet this is what happens.
I always believed the purpose of immigration is to supply needed skills. For instance, teachers of foreign languages or business/finance experts. Otherwise I believe politicians are elected in order to serve in the interests of the population which means making sure people get trained, skilled and educated.
The funny thing is I've been complaining about this sort of thing for years but now a lot has changed so my former minority view is now becoming a majority view. Every day in the newspapers, there is some front page furor about immigration and there's a degree of panic public services cannot cope with the influx.
Crime has risen dramatically because we have a rising number of uneducated, unskilled, poorer people who remain unemployed while many jobs are filled by immigrant workers, often for poor salaries. In some ways, it's like a throwback to the twenties where capitalists exploited workers and the rich benefited from the system. What happened eventually was the formation of radical political parties and movements so I guess capitalists will never learn the lessons of history.
We have to have immigration limits and we have to have a minimum wage for all and decent labour laws. It's the only way to create a stable society.

__________________
"Everybody has a philosophy. However, what philosophy you have is a matter of choice, and most people don't make a conscious choice with regard to what philosophy they accept."

Billsworld

My fear is the same as yours. I think the U.S. has spent its way into a giant black hole. The left blames Iraq, the right blames the borders and social spending. regardless of the cause, that big ball of debt is still getting bigger and the middle class is getting it in the neck

stevebaby

The average American family pays half their income in taxes?
Why would anyone want to move to a country like that?
Have you ever considered the possibility that it may be the amount spent on your military (more than half the total amount of military expenditure in the entire world is spent by just one country...the US. ) that accounts for your tax rates?
Your military is of course, a form of "military Keynesianism" i.e welfare.

__________________
Cruel and vicious,but fair.
Drink!Feck!Arrse!Girls!
Nechaevist

Billsworld

I understand your point. The 50% that I speak of is kind of a moving target. In my case I get hit by the Fed ,State and local. Thats the easy stuff to figure out. The gas taxes , sales taxes and every fee and toll is very hard to add up. On a percentage basis those would not hit higher income individuals as hard. I tend to lean more towards a libertarian view of the Federal govt and the role of the Military. If I were King, we wouldnt be in Iraq and 9/11 wouldnt have happened because the people that did it wouldnt have been in the country. I would however also have a miltary that would in size represent my distrust of China, Russia, etc...(no savings there) As far as the"why would anyone want to move here" comment. If you are speaking of the immigrants that flood here and many other western counties....As Carrera said, they should be allowed in based on OUR needs not theirs. In the case of Mexico, the people that make excuses for the Mexicans ought to look at how Mexico treats its borders and then look at how its wealth from natural resources stays with the mega rich and govt.. I contend that Mexico is in the poverty export business.