Road raging pillocks in Perth

Terryc

Theo Bekkers wrote:

> That will bring a few howls from the gallery. What bicycle infrastructure
> would sir like to buy? :-)

Get a grip on reality Theo. Only because I already contribute heavily to
construction and maintenance of the existing road infrastrcture. So, I
fail to see why a proportion, say 5% for starters, ofthat existing roads
budget should not immediately be applied to building new, high standard
bicycle infrastructure.

lemmiwinks.au@gmail.com

On Feb 27, 10:34 am, "Theo Bekkers" <tbekk...@bekkers.com.au> wrote:
> lemmiwinks...@gmail.com wrote:
> > I know the point you're making here, but I'm taxed heavily enough
> > thanks :-)
>
> So you don't want better bicycling infrastructure then?
>
> Theo

Actually I'm pretty happy with the bicycling infrastructure we have in
my (small) town. I'd like more off road paths, but what we have I'm
very grateful for and I don't want extra paths enough to ask for
them. I think I'd prefer to see some driver education on sharing the
road with cyclists with an emphasis on safe/courteous passing. One
thing I do think would be great is extra wide shoulders on highways so
I could ride between towns easier (I can go the back way for an extra
10km and less traffic, or the highway has a decent shoulder *most* of
the way). Just sell it as a breakdown lane to keep the motorists
happy ;-)

Adrian.Tritschler@gmail.com

On Feb 27, 10:34*am, "Theo Bekkers" <tbekk...@bekkers.com.au> wrote:
> *lemmiwinks...@gmail.com wrote:
> > I know the point you're making here, but I'm taxed heavily enough
> > thanks :-)
>
> So you don't want better bicycling infrastructure then?

Is it the infrastructure (roads) that's the problem or people's
behaviour on that infrastructure?

I'd argue that we don't need more special purpose bicycle
infrastructure in many cases.

Most of the time I'd far prefer that just roads were built, roads
whose design catered for all potential users of those roads, rather
than a parallel network of special bicycle ghettos.

> Theo

Adrian

DeF

Travis wrote:
> No doubt we'll be hearing a lot more about this around here, but
> police are currently interviewing a 19 year old who alledgedly mowed
> down a group of cyclists in Perth's northern suburbs this morning,
> fortunately causing only light injuries.
>
> http://www.thewest.com.au/default.a...ContentID=59164
>
> There is the usual commentary section where people are making the
> usual nasty remarks about packs of lycra louts who break the law by
> riding two abreast causing delays to busy and important people in
> cars.
>
> Travis

Someone has been charged, according to the ABC:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/.../27/2173719.htm

--
e-mail: d.farrow@your finger.murdoch.edu.au
To reply, you'll have to remove your finger.

Zebee Johnstone

In aus.bicycle on Tue, 26 Feb 2008 17:36:26 -0800 (PST)
Adrian.Tritschler@gmail.com <Adrian.Tritschler@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Feb 27, 10:34*am, "Theo Bekkers" <tbekk...@bekkers.com.au> wrote:
>> *lemmiwinks...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > I know the point you're making here, but I'm taxed heavily enough
>> > thanks :-)
>>
>> So you don't want better bicycling infrastructure then?
>
> Is it the infrastructure (roads) that's the problem or people's
> behaviour on that infrastructure?
>

Both. If there were lanes on every road that were not allowed to be
parked over and had the same priority over side roads that the car lane
in the same direction had, and each lane had an advanced stop line at
lights, that's infrastructure.

If there was a presumption of guilt if a car struck a cyclist, and the
car driver had to show it was the cyclist's deliberate action that
caused the strike, that's behaviour....

Zebee

Theo Bekkers

Zebee Johnstone wrote:
> In aus.bicycle on Tue, 26 Feb 2008 17:36:26 -0800 (PST)
> Adrian.Tritschler@gmail.com <Adrian.Tritschler@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Feb 27, 10:34 am, "Theo Bekkers" <tbekk...@bekkers.com.au> wrote:
>>> lemmiwinks...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> I know the point you're making here, but I'm taxed heavily enough
>>>> thanks :-)
>>>
>>> So you don't want better bicycling infrastructure then?
>>
>> Is it the infrastructure (roads) that's the problem or people's
>> behaviour on that infrastructure?
>>
>
> Both. If there were lanes on every road that were not allowed to be
> parked over and had the same priority over side roads that the car
> lane in the same direction had, and each lane had an advanced stop
> line at lights, that's infrastructure.
>
> If there was a presumption of guilt if a car struck a cyclist, and the
> car driver had to show it was the cyclist's deliberate action that
> caused the strike, that's behaviour....

Agreed. Why can't we have the kind of 30 seconds a night on TV education I
saw in the UK, in the Netherlands, and in the USA, last time I was in those
places. Too expensive?

Theo

PeteSig

"Zebee Johnstone" wrote:
> In aus.bicycle on Tue, 26 Feb 2008 17:36:26 -0800 (PST)
> Adrian.Tritschler@gmail.com <Adrian.Tritschler@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Is it the infrastructure (roads) that's the problem or people's
>> behaviour on that infrastructure?
>>
>
> Both. If there were lanes on every road that were not allowed to be
> parked over and had the same priority over side roads that the car lane
> in the same direction had, and each lane had an advanced stop line at
> lights, that's infrastructure.
>
> If there was a presumption of guilt if a car struck a cyclist, and the
> car driver had to show it was the cyclist's deliberate action that
> caused the strike, that's behaviour....

Ahem! Not sure what you're trying to say, but I think that's legislative
structures you're referring to.

'Behaviour' is Joe Bloggs in his sick SS Commode doesn't give a rats about
any crap cyclists and cuts them by close.

--
Cheers
Peter

~~~ ~ _@
~~ ~ _- \,
~~ (*)/ (*)

PeteSig

"Theo Bekkers" wrote:
> PeteSig wrote:

>> It's a lot more than simply a flat landscape. Oh and by the way, both
>> parts of Perth and Melbourne's northern, southern and western suburbs
>> have a relatively flat terrian, much like Amsterdam!
>
> No way is that true of Perth Pete. Unless you're following the river or
> the coast, Perth is mountainous compared to Amsterdam.
>
> Fairly flat where my son lives in Cranbourne Vic.

None of which changes the fact that there is a whole lot more to the
strategies the Dutch have used to encourage a booming use of bikes for
transport.

Ahah! Here is the document from some Dutch planners that I was referring
to.
http://www.cycle-helmets.com/irresistible.pdf

Look in particular at the last two pages for a detailed summary of changes
made to Dutch society that have boosted cycling.

--
Cheers
Peter

~~~ ~ _@
~~ ~ _- \,
~~ (*)/ (*)

PeteSig

"PeteSig" wrote:
> Ahah! Here is the document from some Dutch planners that I was referring
> to.
> http://www.cycle-helmets.com/irresistible.pdf
>
> Look in particular at the last two pages for a detailed summary of changes
> made to Dutch society that have boosted cycling.

Oh yeah, Theo, look also at Fig. 12 for the trend in bicycle use (annual kms
cycled per person) 1950-2005, transposed with the cycle fatality rate
(cyclist deaths per billion kms) over the same period. A nice mirror image,
and a huge drop in cycle use from 1950 to 1975. The Netherlands of your
youth was disappearing until the 70s changes came about.

--
Cheers
Peter

~~~ ~ _@
~~ ~ _- \,
~~ (*)/ (*)

Resound

"Zebee Johnstone" <zebeej@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:slrnfs9ot5.uj9.zebeej@gmail.com...
> In aus.bicycle on Tue, 26 Feb 2008 17:36:26 -0800 (PST)
> Adrian.Tritschler@gmail.com <Adrian.Tritschler@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Feb 27, 10:34 am, "Theo Bekkers" <tbekk...@bekkers.com.au> wrote:
>>> lemmiwinks...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> > I know the point you're making here, but I'm taxed heavily enough
>>> > thanks :-)
>>>
>>> So you don't want better bicycling infrastructure then?
>>
>> Is it the infrastructure (roads) that's the problem or people's
>> behaviour on that infrastructure?
>>
>
> Both. If there were lanes on every road that were not allowed to be
> parked over and had the same priority over side roads that the car lane
> in the same direction had, and each lane had an advanced stop line at
> lights, that's infrastructure.
>
> If there was a presumption of guilt if a car struck a cyclist, and the
> car driver had to show it was the cyclist's deliberate action that
> caused the strike, that's behaviour....

So what would happen if it was the inadvertant action of the cyclist that
caused the strike?

TimC

On 2008-02-27, lemmiwinks.au@gmail.com (aka Bruce)
was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
> On Feb 27, 10:34 am, "Theo Bekkers" <tbekk...@bekkers.com.au> wrote:
>> lemmiwinks...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > I know the point you're making here, but I'm taxed heavily enough
>> > thanks :-)
>>
>> So you don't want better bicycling infrastructure then?
>>
>> Theo
>
> Actually I'm pretty happy with the bicycling infrastructure we have in
> my (small) town. I'd like more off road paths, but what we have I'm
> very grateful for and I don't want extra paths enough to ask for
> them. I think I'd prefer to see some driver education on sharing the
> road with cyclists with an emphasis on safe/courteous passing. One
> thing I do think would be great is extra wide shoulders on highways so
> I could ride between towns easier (I can go the back way for an extra
> 10km and less traffic, or the highway has a decent shoulder *most* of
> the way). Just sell it as a breakdown lane to keep the motorists
> happy ;-)

My commute home has no shoulder, and lots of blind bends, but the
drivers all seem to be courteous and have waited minutes for a
clearing long enough to overtake safely -- apart from the occasional
Sydney tourist in 4WD. The only improvement I want is a road surface
that is less bumpy than boulders. I've been waiting a while for that,
and see no hope of it in the near future.

I think the drivers are mostly courteous because they all know me.
The other day I went to the "cinema" (pirated DVD in town hall), and a
person I have never met before[1] asked whether I had just come down
from night shift to watch the movie. She recognised me when she asked
her husband whether he knew of anyone with a ponytail riding home from
the observatory. We hired him back for a few days this and last week
for consulting since all of the people who know about the aluminising
tank have all retired.

[1] Happens all the time. I'm used to completely unknown people
saying "Hi Tim!".

--
TimC
READING MICROSCOPIC DISCLAIMERS ON COUPON MAY CAUSE PAPER CUTS ON EYEBALLS.
-- Disclaimer on Kibo's Pot Pie of Pain

Zebee Johnstone

In aus.bicycle on Wed, 27 Feb 2008 06:55:53 GMT
PeteSig <petesig@bigpond.com> wrote:
>
> Ahem! Not sure what you're trying to say, but I think that's legislative
> structures you're referring to.
>
> 'Behaviour' is Joe Bloggs in his sick SS Commode doesn't give a rats about
> any crap cyclists and cuts them by close.

Yes, and how does behaviour change?

Education and Enforcement. Education alone won't, Enforcement alone
won't.

I don't think Education as in "don't do it, there's a good chap" will
make a difference. "Don't do it cos only pillocks do, plus you'll cop
several points and a whacking great fine" will.

Zebee

Zebee Johnstone

In aus.bicycle on Wed, 27 Feb 2008 19:09:50 +1100
Resound <sacredchao@bigpond.com> wrote:
>
> "Zebee Johnstone" <zebeej@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:slrnfs9ot5.uj9.zebeej@gmail.com...
>>
>> If there was a presumption of guilt if a car struck a cyclist, and the
>> car driver had to show it was the cyclist's deliberate action that
>> caused the strike, that's behaviour....
>
> So what would happen if it was the inadvertant action of the cyclist that
> caused the strike?

How caused?

As the operator of the more dangerous vehicle, it's the car driver's
job to leave enough room and pass at a speed that means should the
rider ride as normal there won't be a strike. Should the rider say
swerve to pass a pothole, the driver should have seen it too!

(I can see road irregularities a fair way away because as a
motorcyclist it's important to me. Driver retinas work the same way
mine do...)

Zebee

Resound

"Zebee Johnstone" <zebeej@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:slrnfsairs.l0.zebeej@gmail.com...
> In aus.bicycle on Wed, 27 Feb 2008 19:09:50 +1100
> Resound <sacredchao@bigpond.com> wrote:
>>
>> "Zebee Johnstone" <zebeej@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:slrnfs9ot5.uj9.zebeej@gmail.com...
>>>
>>> If there was a presumption of guilt if a car struck a cyclist, and the
>>> car driver had to show it was the cyclist's deliberate action that
>>> caused the strike, that's behaviour....
>>
>> So what would happen if it was the inadvertant action of the cyclist that
>> caused the strike?
>
> How caused?
>
> As the operator of the more dangerous vehicle, it's the car driver's
> job to leave enough room and pass at a speed that means should the
> rider ride as normal there won't be a strike. Should the rider say
> swerve to pass a pothole, the driver should have seen it too!
>
> (I can see road irregularities a fair way away because as a
> motorcyclist it's important to me. Driver retinas work the same way
> mine do...)
>

Playing devil's advocate to a certain extent but thinking of things like
teenage kid pounding out of sidestreet without looking or gumby trundling
through red light (emerging from behind a truck on the other side of the
intersection, say, so the driver couldn't have seen them).