Road raging pillocks in Perth

Terryc

Theo Bekkers wrote:

> I just discovered that soem of my taxes are spent on educating children even
> though my children haven't been in school for more than 20 years. How unfair
> is that?

Isn't this the man who rabbitted on about grandchildren?
If you weren't prepared to pay taxes for education, then you shouldn't
have bred in the first place. don't dip it id you don't want to accept
the consequences.

Terryc

Theo Bekkers wrote:

> I never suggested user pays. I asked whether we should divert roads money to
> cycling or raise and additional tax. I can't see that you have answered
> that.

Um, yes,I did.
Your argument is basically user pays.

Zebee Johnstone

In aus.bicycle on Fri, 29 Feb 2008 10:48:54 +0900
Theo Bekkers <tbekkers@bekkers.com.au> wrote:
>
> We're trying to agree on a suitable punishment for cyclists who ignore red
> light. Not push the red light envelope, like motorists do, but deliberately
> go through a red light because they think the rules don't apply to them,
> becuase they're saving the planet or something. :-)
>

Caning them wouldn't work - they are used to wedgie seats after all.

I'd say make them use single speed, 19" gear. THey'd be very good at
spinning, and wouldn't run reds because it would take them too long at
100rpm to get across the intersection in time!

Zebee

Theo Bekkers

Terryc wrote:
> Theo Bekkers wrote:

>> I just discovered that some of my taxes are spent on educating
>> children even though my children haven't been in school for more
>> than 20 years. How unfair is that?

> Isn't this the man who rabbitted on about grandchildren?
> If you weren't prepared to pay taxes for education, then you shouldn't
> have bred in the first place. don't dip it id you don't want to accept
> the consequences.

You're really having trouble figuring out when I'm being facetious, aren't
you?

I thought it would have been fairly obvious that I was saying
(sarcastically) that there are things we all have to pay for, whether we use
them or not. That stuff is called infrastructure.

Would you like me to put in some smilies so you can tell?

Theo

Theo Bekkers

Terryc wrote:
> Theo Bekkers wrote:

>> I never suggested user pays. I asked whether we should divert roads
>> money to cycling or raise and additional tax. I can't see that you
>> have answered that.

> Um, yes,I did.
> Your argument is basically user pays.

Let me ask it again then.

Are you saying we should spend the same amount of money on road
infrastructure but spend 5% less on the current road maintenance and new
roads, and spend that 5% on cycling facilities?

Or are you saying we should be getting another 5% from the taxpayers, spend
the same on roads as we were and spend the extra 5% on cycling facilities?

Theo

PeteSig

"Theo Bekkers" wrote:
> Terryc wrote:

>> If it is going to be user pays, then lets make sure it really is.
>
> The Dutch solution was that cyclists paid for cycling infrastructure.

Between 1924 and 1940!

Today the social and economic policies are somewhat different:
http://www.cycle-helmets.com/irresistible.pdf

"Automobile speed limitations in cities
- Traffic callming of residential neighboorhoods limits cars to speeds of
30kmh or less
- 'Home zones' in many neighborhoods give cyclists and pedestrians equal
rights to road use and limit cars to walking sepeed (about 7 kmh)
- Car-free zones, one-way streets, and artificial dead-ends make car travel
through the city centre slow and inconvenient
- Turn restrictions for cars but not for cyclists
- Almost no limited access to highwyas (motorways) in city centres
- Strictly enforced speed limits and traffic rules in cities (such as police
cameras at red (lights?)
- Frequent random speed limit enforcement checks by the police
- Advance stop lines and traffic signal prioriyt for cyclists

Taxation of automobile ownership and use
- High taxes and fees on car purchase, ownership and use
- Especially high excise and sales tax on petrol
- High hourly parking rates in city centre, even in medium size cities
- High fees and strict training requirements for obtaining a driver's
license (over DM1,500 in Germany)"

But as an ex-Dutch resident surely you're aware of this Theo???

--
Cheers
Peter

~~~ ~ _@
~~ ~ _- \,
~~ (*)/ (*)

TimC

On 2008-02-29, Theo Bekkers (aka Bruce)
was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
> Terryc wrote:
>> Theo Bekkers wrote:
>
>>> I just discovered that some of my taxes are spent on educating
>>> children even though my children haven't been in school for more
>>> than 20 years. How unfair is that?
>
>> Isn't this the man who rabbitted on about grandchildren?
>> If you weren't prepared to pay taxes for education, then you shouldn't
>> have bred in the first place. don't dip it id you don't want to accept
>> the consequences.

Actually, if he didn't breed, then he'd be paying the same for even
less indirect benefit.

> You're really having trouble figuring out when I'm being facetious, aren't
> you?
>
> I thought it would have been fairly obvious that I was saying
> (sarcastically) that there are things we all have to pay for, whether we use
> them or not. That stuff is called infrastructure.
>
> Would you like me to put in some smilies so you can tell?

And LOLs just to be sure.

--
TimC
Using top down development, you never have any working code. Using bottom
up development, you never solve the problem. -- John Kelly in debian-user

Resound

"Theo Bekkers" <tbekkers@bekkers.com.au> wrote in message
news:47c76594$1@news.bekkers.com.au...
> brucef wrote:
>> Theo Bekkers wrote:
>>> Do you believe we should educate children by beating them with a
>>> stick? If not, why should we educate adults that way?
>>
>> What is all this stuff about sticks? Have we started caning
>> recalcitrant motorists? I thought they just got fined.
>
> We're trying to agree on a suitable punishment for cyclists who ignore red
> light. Not push the red light envelope, like motorists do, but
> deliberately go through a red light because they think the rules don't
> apply to them, becuase they're saving the planet or something. :-)

While I think that cyclists who decide that the shiny red light doesn't
really apply to them are pillocks, I'd prefer the road user who slows, looks
and then proceeds through a red light than one who relies on a combination
of acceleration and prayer.

Resound

"Theo Bekkers" <tbekkers@bekkers.com.au> wrote in message
news:47c7986c$1@news.bekkers.com.au...
> Terryc wrote:
>> Theo Bekkers wrote:
>
>>> I just discovered that some of my taxes are spent on educating
>>> children even though my children haven't been in school for more
>>> than 20 years. How unfair is that?
>
>> Isn't this the man who rabbitted on about grandchildren?
>> If you weren't prepared to pay taxes for education, then you shouldn't
>> have bred in the first place. don't dip it id you don't want to accept
>> the consequences.
>
> You're really having trouble figuring out when I'm being facetious, aren't
> you?
>
> I thought it would have been fairly obvious that I was saying
> (sarcastically) that there are things we all have to pay for, whether we
> use them or not. That stuff is called infrastructure.
>
> Would you like me to put in some smilies so you can tell?

Is that what was missing from my post? My point (well one of them) was that
a user pays system for infrastructure that's essential for the community to
function is not a clever thing.

Theo Bekkers

PeteSig wrote:
> "Theo Bekkers" wrote:

>> No way is that true of Perth Pete. Unless you're following the river
>> or the coast, Perth is mountainous compared to Amsterdam.
>>
>> Fairly flat where my son lives in Cranbourne Vic.
>
> None of which changes the fact that there is a whole lot more to the
> strategies the Dutch have used to encourage a booming use of bikes for
> transport.
>
> Ahah! Here is the document from some Dutch planners that I was
> referring to.
> http://www.cycle-helmets.com/irresistible.pdf
>
> Look in particular at the last two pages for a detailed summary of
> changes made to Dutch society that have boosted cycling.

Hi Pete. Sorry to be a bit late in responding, it's been hectic at work this
week and here I am waiting for a tiler at work on a Saturday morning when I
should be at home. First chance I've had to read the doco you pointed me to.

I particularly like the woonerf,
The most advanced form of traffic calming—the “woonerf” or “home
zone”—imposes

even more restrictions, requiring cars to travel at walking speed.
Pedestrians, cyclists, and

playing children have as much right to use such residential streets as motor
vehicles; indeed,

motor vehicles are required to yield to non-motorized users.


A wonderful idea. I've always said that streets belong to the people, not to
the cars.
We are starting to see some of this following stuff locally

• Special bike lanes leading up to the intersection, with advance stop lines
for cyclists, far
ahead of waiting cars

• Advance green traffic signals for cyclists, and extra green signal phases
for cyclists at

intersections with heavy cycling volumes

But, unfortunately, as usual, with no accompanying education, so motorists
have no idea what it is all about. They just see cyclists pulling ahead of
them at lights and get aggro.

I see Perth fares well in the number of trips area, being on a par with
Canberra. You'd think Adelaide would be better but their roads are woeful,
both in condition and layout. Sydney is strangled by a combination of narrow
roads and high traffic volume.

Part of our problem is the average distance to facilities, with everything
you need to buy concentrated into large shopping centres, often built in
industrial zones. No many people live within 2 kms of a shopping centre, and
then you have to carry that damn helmet everywhere with you. You also see
see more 'elite' cyclists in Oz, in their flash tights and impossible to
walk in shoes. It is not only difficult to go shopping in such a get-up, it
is also embarrasing. We have few adults who cycle on utility bikes wearing
'normal' clothing here, where that is the norm in Holland. In 95% of cases
in Holland, you can't tell by looking at the person next to you at the
supermarket check-out, if they came by bike. This also allows people to
marginalise cyclists as being 'different to me' rather than 'same as my
mum'.

The point that I'm trying to make by being contrary in some of my posts is
that we need to work to work together to improve facilities for all
travellers. I truly don't believe that attitudes of
Motorists need to give up facilities to improve our lot because they're
killing the planet...
Rules don't apply to us because we're saving the planet...
Tax all motorists off the road....
are going to allow us to go very far.

I think we need to get representation of non-elite cyclists, every-day
people who want to go down to the shops, without being harrassed by
motorists and sneered at by the lycra crowd. It is these people that need to
be catered to. Because they are being ignored by all parties, nothing is
going to change very quickly.

Cheers and thanks for that article.

Theo

Theo Bekkers

PeteSig wrote:
> "PeteSig" wrote:
>> Ahah! Here is the document from some Dutch planners that I was
>> referring to.
>> http://www.cycle-helmets.com/irresistible.pdf
>>
>> Look in particular at the last two pages for a detailed summary of
>> changes made to Dutch society that have boosted cycling.
>
> Oh yeah, Theo, look also at Fig. 12 for the trend in bicycle use
> (annual kms cycled per person) 1950-2005, transposed with the cycle
> fatality rate (cyclist deaths per billion kms) over the same period.
> A nice mirror image, and a huge drop in cycle use from 1950 to 1975.
> The Netherlands of your youth was disappearing until the 70s changes
> came about.

Yes indeed, but it looks like it is coming back.

Theo
Who walked to school in winter in clogs and hand-knitted woolen socks.

Theo Bekkers

PeteSig wrote:
> "Theo Bekkers" wrote:
>> Terryc wrote:
>
>>> If it is going to be user pays, then lets make sure it really is.
>>
>> The Dutch solution was that cyclists paid for cycling infrastructure.
>
> Between 1924 and 1940!
>
> Today the social and economic policies are somewhat different:
> http://www.cycle-helmets.com/irresistible.pdf
>
> "Automobile speed limitations in cities
> - Traffic callming of residential neighboorhoods limits cars to
> speeds of 30kmh or less
> - 'Home zones' in many neighborhoods give cyclists and pedestrians
> equal rights to road use and limit cars to walking sepeed (about 7
> kmh) - Car-free zones, one-way streets, and artificial dead-ends make
> car travel through the city centre slow and inconvenient
> - Turn restrictions for cars but not for cyclists
> - Almost no limited access to highwyas (motorways) in city centres
> - Strictly enforced speed limits and traffic rules in cities (such as
> police cameras at red (lights?)
> - Frequent random speed limit enforcement checks by the police
> - Advance stop lines and traffic signal prioriyt for cyclists
>
> Taxation of automobile ownership and use
> - High taxes and fees on car purchase, ownership and use
> - Especially high excise and sales tax on petrol
> - High hourly parking rates in city centre, even in medium size cities
> - High fees and strict training requirements for obtaining a driver's
> license (over DM1,500 in Germany)"
>
> But as an ex-Dutch resident surely you're aware of this Theo???

No argument there Peter. I'm mostly in favour of the items above. It was
Terry's "motorists are evil people who deserve to be punished" that I was
having a go at. :-)

Theo

Theo Bekkers

Resound wrote:
> "Theo Bekkers wrote

>> We're trying to agree on a suitable punishment for cyclists who
>> ignore red light. Not push the red light envelope, like motorists
>> do, but deliberately go through a red light because they think the
>> rules don't apply to them, becuase they're saving the planet or
>> something. :-)

> While I think that cyclists who decide that the shiny red light
> doesn't really apply to them are pillocks, I'd prefer the road user
> who slows, looks and then proceeds through a red light than one who
> relies on a combination of acceleration and prayer.

Oh dearie me. I only use that procedure in the fire truck.

Theo

biggersn@gmail.com

On Mar 1, 10:38 am, "Theo Bekkers" <tbekk...@bekkers.com.au> wrote:
We have few adults who cycle on utility bikes wearing
> 'normal' clothing here, where that is the norm in Holland. In 95% of cases
> in Holland, you can't tell by looking at the person next to you at the
> supermarket check-out, if they came by bike. This also allows people to
> marginalise cyclists as being 'different to me' rather than 'same as my
> mum'.
>
> The point that I'm trying to make by being contrary in some of my posts is
> that we need to work to work together to improve facilities for all
> travellers. I truly don't believe that attitudes of
> Motorists need to give up facilities to improve our lot because they're
> killing the planet...
> Rules don't apply to us because we're saving the planet...
> Tax all motorists off the road....
> are going to allow us to go very far.
>
> I think we need to get representation of non-elite cyclists, every-day
> people who want to go down to the shops, without being harrassed by
> motorists and sneered at by the lycra crowd. It is these people that need to
> be catered to. Because they are being ignored by all parties, nothing is
> going to change very quickly.
>
> Cheers and thanks for that article.
>
> Theo

I was in Germany a couple of months ago, and despite being the dead of
winter, there were still plenty of cyclists, all of whom wore ordinary
street clothes on the bicycle. It is not considered an unusual
activity by the majority of people, unlike here. Admittedly, our hot
summers (with consequent sweating) make dedicated bicycle gear more
sensible at this time of year, but many cyclists here tend to regard
themselves as a separate group of people rather than being merely
ordinary people who happen to use bicycles as a mode of transport.

On the topic of obeying road rules, I dutifully came to a stop on my
bike yesterday along Victoria St in Melbourne when a tram came to a
stop to disgorge and engorge a load of passengers. Another cyclist
behind me shot past the stationery tram, weaving his way between the
passengers, and then proceeded to go straight through a red light a
bit further on. Unfortunately, this sort of behaviour gives us all a
bad name (which is ridiculous - as a few bad apples among motorists
does not and should not damn all motorists.