What is so special about SRAM Red?

alfeng

REALLY?!? Just where in Wisconsin you -- Whitefish Bay? You need a wider circle of "friends" whom you could/should then poll -- I'll bet if you had access to the "books" (or, a "customer" list) of your local bike shop(s), you would see that MOST people are not sponsored riders who receive a team discount.

With the understanding that JTE83 may not be someone with whom you'd want to share a round of beers (I'm sure some people might say the same of me!), that doesn't mean that he is hasn't inadvertantly made a valid observation ... but, as others have rightly noted, there are other factors beyond SRAM which have impacted the current price of components.

Without getting into a lengthy discourse on economics, let me point out that supply-and-demand usually does NOT establish pricing ... and, the supply-and-demand curve only indicates a theoretical sweet spot for pricing & of product distribution ... there is no assurance that there isn't a backlog-OR-shortage of inventory in the warehouse; and/but, presumes that tomorrow's demand for the "product" will be the same as today's ... it could be less OR it could be more in the future.

FYI. De Beers hoards diamonds & has consequently, successfully created and maintained an artificial price level for diamonds.

PERCEIVED VALUE and/or whatever-the-market-will-bear IS how products are often priced.

Marketing has a lot to do with pricing to inspire the consumer's choice ... and, some people want to make the more expensive choice because they presume the value will be there ... for the moment, or during a resale.

Double-Tap (to bring this back to the realm of the immediate thread) may be the greatest shifting mechanism that has ever been designed, but if it had been priced at HALF of the cost of a pair of Shimano STI shifters, there would be many people who wouldn't have given (OR, give) it a second look ...

BTW. Hey, SRAM invented the "grip shift" ... I have some trigger shifters (which most MTBers love/use), but I love the "grip shift" for the same reason that I prefer Campagnolo's ERGO shifters ...

For whatever reason, most riders shun the "grip shift" design and it seems to have been relegated to department-store bikes. Since the "grip shift" lacks the snob-appeal which motivates many purchases, you/(rudycyclist) have to ask yourself if you would use a "grip shift" on a MTB even if you liked it better if you accidentally tried it and liked it ...

For those who don't remember OR aren't aware, to maintain the perception of value, the pricing of American cars has kept pace (i.e., escalated) with the pricing of foreign cars as the Dollar devalued against the Yen and European currencies for DECADES and consequently cars produced-and-sold by the American car manufacturers has continued to lose market share for decades because not all of the consumers can be fooled all of the time (to paraphrase Lincoln) ...

When currency fluctuation finally caused a Toyota Corolla to cost more than a Chevy Impala, well GM/Ford/Chrysler were compelled to raise the price of their full size cars to assure the American consumer that their full-size cars were worth more than those little Toyotas.

Pricing by IS often done with the intention of instilling a perceived value by the consumer ...

Consequently, people paid a premium for their Toyotas or Hondas because, in part, their resale value had warranted it -- that is, no loss in a higher initial expenditure because it was recouped on the back-end.

Despite having the same internal mechansim and only differing cosmetically, some people perceive that a pair of FORCE shifters ($530) is worth more than a pair of RIVAL shifters ($345) ... some people want the "bling" factor OR cosmetic continuity with the rest of their group selection OR whatever ... on the other hand, some people do realize there isn't a reason to pay the premium for the FORCE over the RIVAL ...

Whatever the market will bear ...

I presume that since your parents have paid for -- and, are probably still paying for (directly, or indirectly) -- your cycling "stuff" that you aren't as sensitive to component OR frame prices as most of the other riders who are not sponsored riders. Good luck with that in the future regardless of whether you are sponsored, or not.

FOR THE RECORD. I don't "hate" SRAM ... it IS probably good that there is another "player" producing cycling components. BUT, I continue to contend that SRAM's North American Customer Service is woefully lacking (things could change in the future, but I'm not holding-my-breath) ... and, that is the reason I would never recommend a SRAM product to anyone who is actually paying for the components, themselves.

catlike

Assos this year is offering their top line bibshorts for 180GBP- it is about 400USD. No matter how many competitors around, if you want to sell bibshots (for example) nowadays- make sure the price is high. C'mon- those are only bibshorts.

alfeng

Yes, the per-minute cost of long distance phone service has come down as a result of competition ...

Nonetheless, local phone service was significantly less expensive when the "phone company" was a monopoly ... less than $10 in the late 70s before deregulation ... if you don't factor in the Federal taxes, it pretty much doubled right after Ma Bell became the Baby Bells because the newly formed Baby Bells (and, their State-regulated entities) were no longer subsidized.

No doubt, with the competition in long distance service & lower fees, the number of MINUTES used by the average American eventually went up ... but, much/some of that increase might have been enhanced by the Baby Boom (i.e., a generation who had learned to "phone home" while they were away at college).

Cynically, it could be suggested that the Federal government has subsequently received more revenue because it created more billing agencies ... maybe, not.

Anyway, I was just pointing out a situation where prices went up AFTER a monoply was broken apart ... just "testing" the old saw that competition lowers prices ...
Yes, in part, prices have increased because of technological advances/changes (R&D) ... in part, Dollar devaluation (momentarily, the cost of a "custom" bike frame does not seem to have kept pace with "inflation") ... and, in part, the tulip bulb factor is at play.

On going "demand" HAS kept prices from dropping at the high end, but some of the profits garnered from the high-end "stuff" theoretically go toward R&D & sponsorships (aka "advertising") ... and, a residual benefit is that for a fraction of what a mid-90s Campagnolo Chorus group would have cost, one could get a pre-2007 a Campagnolo Mirage group which was almost comparable to the earlier variant of the better group. Some of that is thanks to Campagnolo's decision to relabel the designs of their formerly better components with the labels given to their lower end component groups ... the practice of continuing to provide "older" component designs has allowd for maintenance-and/or-expansion of market share.

BTW. The fact that the "lesser" Campagnolo groups are immediately sharing designs with the "better" Campagnolo groups suggests (to me) that it is less expensive for the production facilities to simply vary a "single" design (hubs come to mind) rather than continue to maintain multiple production/inventory lines OR they finally exhausted the inventory of all the old turnings! It could be argued that the 2007-and-subsequent Veloce group (for example) is equal-to-or-better than the 1998 Chorus group, and undoubtedly better than the 2007 Chorus group.Good-or-bad, the BLING-factor has its place ... it is part of what makes the World go round!

alfeng

Maybe, not ...

BUT, only because if there were only Campagnolo at the high end, we would probably still be using FRICTION shifters!
So, for whatever reason you prefer, thank goodness for Shimano, et al.

gemship

I just had my new Cervelo built up with Ultegra SL and I really like it alot. Reliability, bling, and a lot cheaper than sram or campy at 1k$

jojoma

Yes it can believe it or not. Consider satellite radio, where you have Sirius and XM as the dominant players. Many fear that a merger would harm consumers because they would raise prices. But if you listen to CEOs, they say that right now they are spending so much money trying to beat each other that they need to keep the prices high. So if they combine forces, they can pass those savings on to the consumer.

alfeng

YIKES! Sorry, that should have read:

... It could be argued that the 2007-and-subsequent Veloce group (for example) is equal-to-or-better than the 1998 Chorus group, and undoubtedly better than the 1997 Chorus group.

Peter@vecchios

'Better' is a big word. When Centaur and below shift innards changed in 2007 to that of Xenon, the RD became a Veloce with a carbon 'bit', when the crank became a Chorus with Veloce CRs, and the hubs disappeared(the nice Centaur aluminum axled ones-2007/8 Centaur is relabeled Veloce), I don't view it, particularly the left lever, as 'better'. Centaur and below shifts like Sram now, not impressed. When selling Centaur I get 2006 Centaur levers and hubs(until they are gone).

I prefer the 'traditional' shift innards of all previous ERGO and today Record and Chorus over the Xenon type.

alfeng

FWIW. I also prefer the traditional, pre-2007 mechanism ... so, I would also argue on the same side that you are on that the pre-2007 mechanism is better/(the best) ... but, those 1997-and-before shifters were really heavy, and I think that "only" (?) Jan Ullrich actually liked the shape.



But, there are some people other than Campagnolo's bean-counters who prefer the 2007/(aka XENON) mechanism ...

From the bean-counters point of view, if they are able to sell more shifters with the Xenon-mechanism, then it is better regardless of whether or not the core of their ridership embrace it ... they probably figure we can either buy a RECORD/CHORUS or scrounge around for some pre-2007 shifters.

No doubt, the newbie, in particular, who is more familiar with the lighter feel of an STI shifter is less likely to be intimidated by the crisper feel of the traditional Campagnolo ERGO mechansim when first trying out some Campagnolo shifters on a demo bike ... so, that is potentially "a good thing" for the shop owner.


All-in-all, after testing the XENON-mechanism with the bike in a trainer, I deemed it to be "okay" ... and/(i.e., because), I felt/thought I was able to trim the front adequately while using a Shimano front derailleur (that was MY concern ... I only tested the mechanism with a double crank, BTW; so, it might be unacceptable with a triple).

BTW. Peter/anyone, do you know if the index wheel is interchangeable between the traditional ERGO shifters & the XENON shifters, or are they exclusive to the particular designs? I don't feel like disassembling my "test" shifters just to check.