Page 3 - How far on 8 hours a week?

14-03.-2008, 02:13 PM

#31

frenchyge

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Join Date: Apr 2005

Location: Kansas City, USA

Posts: 3,691

Re: How far on 8 hours a week?

Quote:

Originally Posted by LT Intolerant

But the question at hand is when do you reach diminshing returns?

That's the question at hand? I believe the folks competing at the highest level want to capitalize on *every* return, diminishing or otherwise. That's why the answer to the OP's question of why elite athletes train more is "because they can." Why would they do less?

Quote:

Originally Posted by LT Intolerant

I would imagine that at some point improvement begins to level off no matter how many hours you put in or how many 2 x 20s you do....

Sure, but it levels off at a higher value than it would for someone who is training less, assuming equal genetics.

Quote:

Originally Posted by grahamspringett

But how about keeping doing what I'm doing? Surely the improvements will come eventually.

Eventually your body will adapt to the training load your 8 hrs is providing and progress will slow. Those that are doing 50% more training load than you will continue to progress beyond what you are capable of -- all other factors being equal.

Still doesn't mean you can't be a great and successful racer.

14-03.-2008, 02:30 PM

#32

LT Intolerant

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Join Date: Mar 2006

Posts: 96

Re: How far on 8 hours a week?

Quote:

Originally Posted by frenchyge

I'm not saying I have the answer because I'm not an "elite" cyclist and don't have access to their training programs. But when I read this statement, more stimulus = more adaptation, the question that came to mind was, "at what cost?"

I would think elite cyclists and their coaches would opt for overload to the point of diminishing returns, and then take as much rest as they can to consolidate fitness and avoid psychological burnout. At some point more stimulus is not going to create adaptation, only fatigue, which will compromise performance.

14-03.-2008, 02:54 PM

#33

frenchyge

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Location: Kansas City, USA

Posts: 3,691

Re: How far on 8 hours a week?

Quote:

Originally Posted by LT Intolerant

But when I read this statement, more stimulus = more adaptation, the question that came to mind was, "at what cost?"

Sorry, that was the short answer to the question quoted above the statement, not a suggested general training philosophy. Obviously there is a breaking point, but up until that point there would be a positive correlation between the amount of training and the resulting improvements. 8 hours per week would still be well down on that curve, IMO.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LT Intolerant

I would think elite cyclists and their coaches would opt for overload to the point of diminishing returns, and then take as much rest as they can to consolidate fitness and avoid psychological burnout. At some point more stimulus is not going to create adaptation, only fatigue, which will compromise performance.

The more hours they have to work with, the more they can fine tune this process and the further they can inch out on that branch without cracking it.

14-03.-2008, 03:00 PM	#34
LT Intolerant Registered User Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 96	Re: How far on 8 hours a week? ^ strongly agree on both points

15-03.-2008, 03:11 AM	#35
Squint Registered User Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 337	Re: How far on 8 hours a week? Until recently, I've always placed a big emphasis on intensity. But historically, all my big improvements have been the result of increased volume. Even at the cost of a little intensity.

15-03.-2008, 07:07 AM

#36

mikeyp123

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Join Date: Mar 2007

Posts: 45

Re: How far on 8 hours a week?

Quote:

Originally Posted by patrick_

The book by Greg Lemond is almost 20 years old now, he has changed his opinion on training a bit in the mean time.

The 600 TSS suggested are certainly doable, let's check a theoretic upper limit:
-L4 only
-rest periods off the bike
-no warmup/cooldown
-2* 30 min intervals per day, 3 per weekend day
-intervals done at 103% FTP during the week, at 100% on weekends
results in 830TSS/wk, a CTL of 118.

The 11 hours/wk of Boardman certainly seem enough to reach peak CTL.

Newbie here.. What is peak CTL? Or how would one go about figuring that out.

15-03.-2008, 07:11 AM

#37

daveryanwyoming

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Join Date: Oct 2006

Posts: 1,506

Re: How far on 8 hours a week?

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikeyp123

Newbie here.. What is peak CTL? Or how would one go about figuring that out.

Chronic Training Load (CTL) is a way of measuring overall training load that takes into account both time and intensity and relies on measurements of power put out while riding. Here's a good intro to power based training concepts:
http://www.cyclingpeakssoftware.com/power411/

Check out item 12 for more info on CTL.

-Dave

15-03.-2008, 07:21 AM

#38

mikeyp123

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Posts: 45

Re: How far on 8 hours a week?

Quote:

Originally Posted by daveryanwyoming

Thanks Dave.. I should have phrased my question differently. What I meant to ask is what would my peak CTL be, what CTL should I target.. and how would I figure this out. My current CTL is 79.. just starting out with racing, but been riding for years and years (used to be a comeptative tri age-grouper).

15-03.-2008, 09:05 AM

#39

Alex Simmons

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Location: Sydney, Australia

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Re: How far on 8 hours a week?

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikeyp123

It depends.

I would say, in general, as high as you can manage while not degrading event specific fitness.

How many season's worth of power meter data do you have? The answer may already be in the data....

__________________
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15-03.-2008, 09:50 AM

#40

mikeyp123

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Join Date: Mar 2007

Posts: 45

Re: How far on 8 hours a week?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex Simmons

I hardly have any data, I just started with power training. I seem to be responding well to a slight ramp up of weekly CTL, although I might be overdoing it a touch. I'm at about a 3-5 point ramp-up per week, for 3 weeks. I might have to slow that down soon. Currently at about 8 hours a week, at high intesity.

I'll probably kick it back a notch for a week then start building up again.

15-03.-2008, 10:29 AM

#41

daveryanwyoming

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Posts: 1,506

Re: How far on 8 hours a week?

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikeyp123

Thanks Dave.. I should have phrased my question differently. What I meant to ask is what would my peak CTL be, what CTL should I target.. ....

That depends on a lot of things including your experience, your racing goals, your training philosophy, available hours to train and available hours to recover.

Last year was my first complete year with power data. My CTL peaked with a one day high of 104 but was in the 80s to 90s most of the race season. I raced well with that base but would have liked a bit more for tapers and perhaps to feel stronger on day two and three of stage races. I've just hit 100 this season all of it from indoor training and hope to be somewhere around 110 by the first stage races or multiday events roll around.

There are no hard and fast rules and it depends a lot on the kind of events you're targeting but I wouldn't want to do much racing with my CTL below 80 and doubt I'll ever get above 120 based on available time to train and recover. One way to think of it is that a CTL of 100 means you've averaged a full one hour time trial raced at FTP per day for the last 3 months or more. With a base like that a run of the mill crit is pretty close to your average daily load, a road race a bit more and a time trial probably the same or less. It's nice to go into a weekend of racing knowing the events are on par with your average load for the previous 3 months. With a CTL of 50 or 60 almost any event is going to be above your average load and multiday events can really force you to dig deep.

-Dave

16-03.-2008, 06:58 AM

#42

mikeyp123

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Join Date: Mar 2007

Posts: 45

Re: How far on 8 hours a week?

Quote:

Originally Posted by daveryanwyoming

That depends on a lot of things including your experience, your racing goals, your training philosophy, available hours to train and available hours to recover.
...
-Dave

Thanks Dave. That helps clarify things for me.. especially how it relates to FTP.

So it looks like it will be a season of discovery for me. But currently, like I mentioned, I'm just below 80 CTL. It went from 66.2 to 77.8 in 3 weeks, I think I might have overdone things a bit with increasing my training load so quickly. I had a bad crash in Dec, broke my collar-bone.. when things were feeling better I really ramped up the training load. I can't imagine getting to the 90 range at my current rate. This general feeling of fatigue is starting to set in. I think it time for an easy week.

16-03.-2008, 09:09 AM

#43

daveryanwyoming

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Join Date: Oct 2006

Posts: 1,506

Re: How far on 8 hours a week?

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikeyp123

...I'm just below 80 CTL. It went from 66.2 to 77.8 in 3 weeks, I think I might have overdone things a bit with increasing my training load so quickly...

Ramping ~11 CTL points in 3 weeks isn't terribly excessive. A lot of folks have run into problems like unexpected illness when they attempt to ramp faster than 8 CTL points per week, but your rate of <4 points per week shouldn't be a big problem.

Were you trying a lot of high end work as part of the mix as in chasing 20 minute or 5 minute records frequently during your training? Did you have a lot of L5 and or L6 workouts during that period? Were you diligent about refueling with carbs and some protein in the critical half hour after each workout?( http://www.mysports101.com/a.php?a=17 ) Were you dealing with other unexpected life stresses?

Quote:

...This general feeling of fatigue is starting to set in. I think it time for an easy week.

Definitely listen to your body and take rest if you need it, but consider a soft week as opposed to a rest week. IOW, think about dropping your daily TSS by 15-20% and dropping intensity so that you're doing a lot of SST work in the form of longer sustained intervals at 80-90% of your current FTP. Maybe even do a few hour to hour and a half Tempo efforts around 75% of FTP.

I find dropping back to a week or two of concentrated SST work can be really refreshing if I've dug a bit too deep and can help me break through power plateaus and staleness. Anyway a soft week can still move you forward but not quite as aggressively as what you've been doing.

Good luck,
-Dave

17-03.-2008, 04:11 AM

#44

kclw

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Join Date: Mar 2006

Posts: 110

Re: How far on 8 hours a week?

Quote:

Originally Posted by daveryanwyoming

There are no hard and fast rules and it depends a lot on the kind of events you're targeting but I wouldn't want to do much racing with my CTL below 80 and doubt I'll ever get above 120 based on available time to train and recover. One way to think of it is that a CTL of 100 means you've averaged a full one hour time trial raced at FTP per day for the last 3 months or more. With a base like that a run of the mill crit is pretty close to your average daily load, a road race a bit more and a time trial probably the same or less.

-Dave

I have to disagree with you. A race, even a crit, should far exceed your average daily load. If this isn't true then you are either racing in a category way to slow for you or you are trainning way to hard and to tired to race properly.

If you are able to one full hour of FTP per day for the last 3 months then your estimate for FTP is to low or you system of measurement system is incorrect.

17-03.-2008, 08:55 AM

#45

daveryanwyoming

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Join Date: Oct 2006

Posts: 1,506

Re: How far on 8 hours a week?

Quote:

Originally Posted by kclw

...A race, even a crit, should far exceed your average daily load. If this isn't true then you are either racing in a category way to slow for you or you are trainning way to hard and to tired to race properly...

I think you're confusing training load with intensity. Sure a crit is almost certainly going to exceeed your average training intensity but not necessarily your average training load. That is more or less the basis of LSD training used by many europros. They'll build a large training load through relatively low intensity miles and then race with much higher intensity but not necessarily much higher load. Nope, I'm not advocating LSD work for most folks, but the idea is the same. TSS (and from it CTL) reflects training load which is proportional to intensity squared times duration. IOW it takes into account both intensity and duration. I agree a typical race will be ridden at much higher intensity, but not necessarily yield a higher TSS or load than a typical average training day.

Quote:

...If you are able to one full hour of FTP per day for the last 3 months then your estimate for FTP is to low or you system of measurement system is incorrect.

You might want to review the definition of TSS and CTL.

By definition a CTL of 100 is a load equal to riding a full hour at FTP every day for the last 3 months. That's the way the math works out based on FTP and many folks have CTL in excess of 100. Every one of them has handled a daily average load equal to a full one hour time trial ridden at FTP. Sure they more than likely work harder some days and rest on other days and it's doubtful that they train at an intensity equal to a one hour TT at race pace. Most folks will train at lower intensity but they'll also train longer than an hour per day and it's the long term TSS average(CTL) that what we're talking about. The example I've given is directly from the definition of TSS and from that CTL.

Having a CTL at or above 100 doesn't mean you've underestimated your FTP, it means you've trained a lot.

-Dave

Last edited by daveryanwyoming : 17-03.-2008 at 09:15 AM.

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