Page 2 - EPO? Yes of no?

06-04.-2008, 02:19 AM

#16

Felt_Rider

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Re: EPO? Yes of no?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nas_kaj

1.If it's not against the rules, is it cheating? 2.Doping can probably offer you the same advantages as having a very good coach as oppose to not having a coach. We all know that your choice in a coach won't get you arrested. Is being unethical almost equivalent to breaking the law?

I am a former user and dealer of PED's (did not deal or use EPO)

1. In most sporting event it is against the rules. It was not against the rules in the cult activity of bodybuilding, which is what I competed in. It is actually condoned in that activity. However, participating on that side of the fence nearly ruined my life from a legal view and it did ruin my contact's life in NYC while trying to bring in product from South Africa. From a health view I have known associates that have died from health complications not directly related to PED's, but it is strange that several did not make into their 40's. I may or may not have future health problems.
2. Depends, but that thought is a poor attitude and poor logic - IMO.

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Last edited by Felt_Rider : 06-04.-2008 at 02:24 AM.

06-04.-2008, 03:54 AM

#17

buckybux

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Re: EPO? Yes of no?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nas_kaj

If it's not against the rules, is it cheating? Doping can probably offer you the same advantages as having a very good coach as oppose to not having a coach. We all know that your choice in a coach won't get you arrested. Is being unethical almost equivalent to breaking the law?

You are mixing measures, against the rules versus cheating. Rules is similar to legal, and the measure for that is beyond a shadow of doubt. Cheating, it an ethical perimeter, and I would use a much lower threshold.

I want professional sports to be a competition against self development, NOT a measure of how the body can be changed artifically to win.

Your choice of a coach is about self development, taking PED's is changing your body artifically; so being unethical when done beyond a shadow of a doubt is breaking the law.

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06-04.-2008, 04:58 AM

#18

alienator

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Re: EPO? Yes of no?

Quote:

Originally Posted by buckybux

+10. There is a fundamental difference between slaving away while training at 10,000 ft and taking EPO or blood doping. There is no shade of grey between sweating out repeats of hills or doing intervals to get stronger and using HGH. That there is a forum dedicated to helping people with their doping efforts shows just how pathetic and sad those people are. Sport should be all about effort. There is zero effort in putting on a testosterone patch.

08-04.-2008, 12:32 AM

#19

Peter@vecchios

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Re: EPO? Yes of no?

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDarkLord

That is just wrong - especially the "so what if he lied". So, it is ok in your book to lie? If Clemens were to be let go, then others would be emboldened to lie with impunity. And the one of the reasons he was not caught was the lax or inexistant attitude towards doping.

AFAIK, EPO is a PED, and is not legal in competitive sports - am I wrong about this?

Lance was given EPO during his treatment. I guess with proper documentation, a cyclist could compete legally with it. They do with other drugs that are PED, unless supplemented by a legit MD's perscription.

08-04.-2008, 12:33 AM

#20

Peter@vecchios

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Re: EPO? Yes of no?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nas_kaj

Good thing Phill P set me straight. I didn't know it could be that severe but, can't you just take blood out of your system, and inject it back into yourself before a race?

Blood doping, legal until 1985. Tough on your liver as well as your heart and brain.

08-04.-2008, 01:18 AM

#21

TheDarkLord

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Re: EPO? Yes of no?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter@vecchios

And he was also taking EPO (and who knows what other PEDs) while racing (illegally of course). A retroactive test of his old 1999 samples revealed them to be positive for EPO, but since it is far enough back to be unable to sanction for, he is still going scot-free.

08-04.-2008, 02:08 AM

#22

Felt_Rider

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Re: EPO? Yes of no?

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDarkLord

As very many are, have and will.
I wonder how many others have retired and are now thinking, "I am glad all the attention is on Lance and the current field instead of me" knowing full well they are just as guilty.

Just saying

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08-04.-2008, 02:16 AM

#23

jhuskey

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Re: EPO? Yes of no?

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDarkLord

I don't think EPO was on the list in 1999 but I am open to be corrected.

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08-04.-2008, 03:01 AM

#24

TheDarkLord

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Re: EPO? Yes of no?

Quote:

Originally Posted by jhuskey

I don't think EPO was on the list in 1999 but I am open to be corrected.

You're probably right jhusk. I'm not very familiar with the history and don't know when EPO was added to the list of banned substances.

08-04.-2008, 03:09 AM

#25

jhuskey

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Re: EPO? Yes of no?

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDarkLord

You're probably right jhusk. I'm not very familiar with the history and don't know when EPO was added to the list of banned substances.

EPO is a natural substance that is present in the body and the synthetic stuff disappears after a time. The effects last much longer,of course.
If I recall correctly the tests for EPO were developed around 2000 and one of the methods is to compare mature red cells to immature ones.
That being said I am not a doctor or lab tech so as stated I am very open to being corrected.

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08-04.-2008, 03:35 AM	#26
Felt_Rider Registered User Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 1,199	Re: EPO? Yes of no? The way it works is a constant game of cat and mouse. Those testing are and most likely will always lag behind those creating new forms. Think about the span of time of those competing that were using EPO in a period where the governing authorities didn't even realize that it was a drug being used for performance enhancement. Then there is a span of time of trying to figure out how to test for that particular drug and establish testing criteria. With designer drugs and labs like Balco (which there are many) this will continue. There will be periods when the testing technology and criteria will appear to be update, but you will never know for sure. By the time they catch up there is something new. It is my belief athletes will now turn from EPO (some desperate will still try to use it just like some still try blood doping) to finding something new. Even when I was heavily involved with this stuff I was always amazed to hear about something on the black market that others had been using and I didn't even know about, but eventually word gets around on the "street" and the more it gets around on the street is when the governing authorities jump on it. Sorry if I am sounding pesimistic like Flyer. __________________ My Blog

08-04.-2008, 03:50 AM

#27

TheDarkLord

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Re: EPO? Yes of no?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Felt_Rider

The way it works is a constant game of cat and mouse.
Those testing are and most likely will always lag behind those creating new forms. Think about the span of time of those competing that were using EPO in a period where the governing authorities didn't even realize that it was a drug being used for performance enhancement. Then there is a span of time of trying to figure out how to test for that particular drug and establish testing criteria. With designer drugs and labs like Balco (which there are many) this will continue. There will be periods when the testing technology and criteria will appear to be update, but you will never know for sure. By the time they catch up there is something new. It is my belief athletes will now turn from EPO (some desperate will still try to use it just like some still try blood doping) to finding something new. Even when I was heavily involved with this stuff I was always amazed to hear about something on the black market that others had been using and I didn't even know about, but eventually word gets around on the "street" and the more it gets around on the street is when the governing authorities jump on it.

Sorry if I am sounding pesimistic like Flyer.

No, what you are saying is true - dopers are always one step ahead of the testers. The dope doctors either have new drugs, or have new agents that mask existing drugs. That's why they get paid the big bucks from the riders.

08-04.-2008, 06:33 AM

#28

Phill P

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Re: EPO? Yes of no?

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDarkLord

Like I said its only cheating if the rules say it is cheating.

EPO, testosterone, and blood doping is still done in the field.

What would be more interesting to hear about is what are they doing that is one step ahead that is not yet against the rules (because they haven't figured out a test yet).

I had heard some riders were returning 0 testosterone levels. They suspect that some riders could be using a powder they could put on thier fingure tips before a test then flick through thier urine stream. The powder had an ensime that destroyed protiens wiping out all evidence of testosterone high or low.

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08-04.-2008, 06:56 AM

#29

TheDarkLord

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Re: EPO? Yes of no?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phill P

Like I said its only cheating if the rules say it is cheating.

EPO, testosterone, and blood doping is still done in the field.

According to the rules, they are cheating. Just because one is clever enough to not get caught does not mean that s/he is not cheating.

08-04.-2008, 06:57 AM

#30

Felt_Rider

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Re: EPO? Yes of no?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phill P

What would be more interesting to hear about is what are they doing that is one step ahead that is not yet against the rules (because they haven't figured out a test yet).

Gene Doping is out on the far edge as one item of discussion.

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