Which Half is Better

jsirabella

I think what you are describing is what I do many times. Lately I have been working on extending my SST/L4 longer than 20 minutes and see how my body feels. Every couple days been adding 5 more minutes to it. Once I reach an hour I move up my watts and start from 20 minutes again. During the last 5 minutes of these sessions if I feel good, I try and kick it up a notch. It helps alot with my average watts as always trying to deal with my warm up numbers, if you know what I mean.

-js

wiredued

Just had another idea after the commute ride home today while still in my work clothes I just got on the KK for 4 minutes rode like a nut at 116% 22mph aprox get off stand in front of the fan for a while and I'm done. I think adding it as a kick at the end of a 3x20 is OK indoors but outdoors it tends to shorten my ride trying to fit it in.

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Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. http://www.earnharts.com/html/reala...ecific.asp?id=3

frenchyge

Ok, if I'm understanding your question correctly, then let me give it a shot. I'm reading that you do two seperate efforts of 2 minutes each where you ride at approx. VO2max power. On the first effort you start from a HR of 120 bpm (fresh from a rest), and on the other you start from a HR of 163 bpm (at the end of an L4 interval). You're wondering which one would be better for improving VO2max. If that's right then maybe I'll collect my lesser prize right now and not push my luck further.

If I'm with you this far, then I'd say the second interval should be more effective, although they're both probably only marginally effective at all. The reason is that your body's aerobic processes take some time to ramp up following the increase in power output, and the half-life of those processes is ~30 sec. Since the second effort starts you much closer to VO2max (ie, at ~96% FTP), you body will get much closer to VO2max during the 4 half-lives that comprise the 2-minute effort. The reason neither is likely very effective is that in both cases the metabolic processes are just finally getting taxed by the time you shut 'er down. That's why VO2max intervals are typically recommended for at least ~3 minutes, if not longer.

I've received a post from Andy in the past which I interpreted (possibly incorrectly, but why do they all have to be interpreted anyway? )to mean that the stimulus which prompts an increase in VO2max isn't really all that well understood yet, and that it wasn't clear whether VO2max adaptations correlated better with time spent at VO2max, or some other factor, eg. frequency in reaching VO2max. So, it's all probably a crapshoot, but you should hold the effort for at least ~3 minutes to at least ensure that VO2max is reached.

THE END.

wiredued

Wow you nailed it better than I could have and I'm the one that dreamed up this fatally flawed question you win.

That's what I thought otherwise why would DR Coggan in his HRM days recommend getting 10bpm close to MaxHR in the last few intervals. (that should provoke a correction from our leader) I think it's because it is good to have heart rate at VO2max level when your legs are there.

That sounds great it should hold up under peer review.

So to fit it in to my busy schedule without shortening my outside training rides what do you think about the idea of doing a 4 minute blast on the KKR on my "recovery" days (Mon Wed Fri Sun) if my attempt to do it outdoors fails the day before. I think I might keep the jump start on the second interval of my 3x20s cause L6 is good to right but I might shorten it to 1 minute of L5 which really would be L6

Great stuff Thanks

__________________
Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. http://www.earnharts.com/html/reala...ecific.asp?id=3

frenchyge

Sweet.

I think that's an indication that the interval is both hard enough and long enough to elicit the proper response. I'm not sure starting HR has much to do with it, although it should serve to reduce the necessary ramp-up time slightly.

I wouldn't say that's the best way to train VO2max, but that wasn't your question was it? If you're only going to do a single interval, then do it on the longer end of the L5 spectrum (ie, ~6-8 minutes) rather than the shorter. That'll help ensure that your anaerobic resources are tapped out and your aerobic processes have to fully ramp up to carry the load.

wiredued

I think he meant as a finishing HR


6 to 8 minutes at L5 will make me want to puke and that just takes the joy out of it. I do like 3x4s but when I train 4 days a week I get the take it or leave it attitude. I guess my goal is to find a workout that will yeild FTP improvement (even +1 watt a month is a motivator) and still have me hungry to ride.

__________________
Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. http://www.earnharts.com/html/reala...ecific.asp?id=3

frenchyge

I hear ya. If you figure out an easy way to train VO2max, write a book about it.

swampy1970

How can you have enough left at the end of a 20 minute interval (of which it seems like he's doing 3) just mess around like this? If you're not going hard enough throughout the 20 minutes such that a revisit of the ol' lunch is in order then you might as well just go for a single 1 hour ride and not bother with the farting around during the rest periods.

wiredued

It is possible it is similar to a three minute kick at the end of a 1 hour time trial. I decided not to do a jump start on the second interval now because I can get plenty of L6 on the commute to work it is a short ride. I did a 3x4 after a 2x20 on Tuesdays for about 5 or 6 weeks about a month back and saw FTP improve from 267 to 280w. A 3x4 is a bigger pill to swallow but I will probably go back to that if this doesn't work.

__________________
Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. http://www.earnharts.com/html/reala...ecific.asp?id=3

frenchyge

Physiologically, 3x20 is similar to 1x60. Mentally, though, it feels much easier and leaves a little spunk left for harder periods at the end of each interval. The energy expended during those little pushes doesn't make a significant difference to the overall power level of the set.

jsirabella

You are starting to sound like the old days when I was a gym rat and you only had a good workout if you puked.

I do agree though that if you are not feeling something from the 20 minute intervals you should either extend them or raise the wattage. I usually prefer to first extend them, than make a judgement call if next time I should go a bit higher.

I would not call what Tyson does farting around and I notice many times he will do two hours at 220 watts so 3x20 SST to me is not farting around. I finally was able to get that number on last Saturday of 220 for 2 hours.

-js

swampy1970

If you've ridden 60 minutes "on the rivet" how do you have anything left? At 50 minutes you should be about ready to sell your soul to the Devil and yack whatever you ate a couple of hours ago all over the pavement. Getting out of the saddle at the end of a 25 mile time trial is almost as much a case of keeping things going as it is getting the damned ride done and dusted...

If you still have enough beans in the bag to purposely think about "sprinting" then you've left too much meat simmering on the grill....

wiredued

I'm not sure what your definition of a sprint is but my power rarely gets higher than 450 watts max for a few seconds at the end of my workout. When I'm fresh my max sprint power is about 1,233 watts which I would agree is not possible at the end of a 3x20.

__________________
Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. http://www.earnharts.com/html/reala...ecific.asp?id=3

jsirabella

I think it may be an issue here of just not using the correct terms. But if "on the rivet" means what it sounds like as I have never used that expression than yes you should be feeling like you left everything on the road with your 3 X 20s but I do not know how long of a break he is taking between intervals as I write this. If he is taking anywhere from 5-10 min breaks at tempo than I can see how he could do a high L4 at the end not really a sprint.

-js