Which Half is Better

Originally Posted by swampy1970

How can you have enough left at the end of a 20 minute interval (of which it seems like he's doing 3) just mess around like this? If you're not going hard enough throughout the 20 minutes such that a revisit of the ol' lunch is in order then you might as well just go for a single 1 hour ride and not bother with the farting around during the rest periods.

Originally Posted by wiredued

Breaks are 5 minutes long 2 to 3 of them off the bike... At the end of my 3x20 when there is three minutes to go I kick it for an average of about 116% of FTP a good L5 effort. The average for the 3x20 is about 96%FTP including the kick so it is a little less than a 100% TT pace... Maybe I am more conservative during my HOP test because I usually go faster at the end probably a high L4 or low L5 in the last few minutes.

Originally Posted by jsirabella

Based upon what you have experienced IMHO, I would either extend the 20 minute interval by 5 minutes or more depending on how you feel or move up the wattage of the 20 minute interval as you may have a higher FTP. Also from your description you are doing this outdoors and not on a CT or trainer, correct?

Also based upon your writing I would not get off the bike...this is just my preference as I feel you are better served to see if you can fall back into a tempo pace. I sometimes find for myself that if I give my all on a 20 minute interval, like cresting a hill I sometimes can not readjust quick enough back into a tempo pace when coming over the hill.

-js

Originally Posted by wiredued

When I push with more L4 FTP doesn't budge when I pull it with L5 FTP improves so I'm sticking with the maximal oxygen thingy Dave is talking about.

Originally Posted by doctorSpoc

you don't seem to have a very good understanding of the utility of interval training... this is kinda surprising since this is not a new concept. it's used so that the work periods can have a higher ave. power than they can from doing a single long effort... or so that the intervals can be done more comfortably at the same power that they could be done in one long effort. the trade off is time.. 5-10 mins for 2x20 or 10-20mins for 3x20.. the benefit is a higher quality, more repeatable, less mentally taxing workout... again if you do 60 mins at power x.. you've still done 60mins at power x (or even better power x + 5W).. if you can do it without chucking up your lunch (i.e. using intervals) that's even better and that is what interval training gives.

Originally Posted by doctorSpoc

you don't seem to have a very good understanding of the utility of interval training... this is kinda surprising since this is not a new concept. it's used so that the work periods can have a higher ave. power than they can from doing a single long effort... or so that the intervals can be done more comfortably at the same power that they could be done in one long effort. the trade off is time.. 5-10 mins for 2x20 or 10-20mins for 3x20.. the benefit is a higher quality, more repeatable, less mentally taxing workout... again if you do 60 mins at power x.. you've still done 60mins at power x (or even better power x + 5W).. if you can do it without chucking up your lunch (i.e. using intervals) that's even better and that is what interval training gives.

Originally Posted by swampy1970

I have no clue about intervals - I only started doing them back in.. oh, 1986. My coach only wrote papers and gathered data on them back in the early 1970's - heck maybe even back in the 60s.... So, yeah I'm a complete novice.

http://www.abcc.co.uk/Articles/int_train1.html

There's the little ditty he wrote. Data from 1972... Progressive overload - sometimes rather painful but this is the first time ever in 20 years of cycling that I've heard of intervals for comfort. That session outlined in there was an early summer mid week session - early spring you get a few less, late summer even more.. Those dozen almost 1km efforts will have you wishing that dinner was four and not two hours earlier... LOL

Seeing that he coached riders that would finish top 20 in The Tour, win medals at the Commonwealth games and many national medals, I think the guy knew his stuff. Never stuck in his ways - a nice mix of following what he knew that worked whilst also looking forward to the research that was 'cutting edge' at any given time.

Comfort in training. That almost goes against what preparing for races is all about. I guess if you're not a racing cycling then fair enough, why should you have to deal with the stress of riding on the rivet for 50-or-so minutes in a 25? If you start foo-fooing around doing 3x20 at your one hour pace, how do you get used to that feeling of fatigue that you get after about 40minutes, where your pedalling action is no longer as smooth as it might be? How do you deal with the crouched position for 50minutes at that work load? I can see it being good cardiovascular wise but for everything else....???

If I had asked Malc, "hey, I think I'm going to do 6x20 minutes instead of my 2 hour ride at almost 50mile tt pace cause I want to be comfy" I would have received a look so cold that it would have sent chills through even penguins and I would have had my after race "tea and biscuits" suspended for a month!!! LOL

Originally Posted by jsirabella

I think we are dealing here with an issue of emblishment.

Originally Posted by jsirabella

I think we are dealing here with an issue of emblishment. Meaning I do not think that when a person is doing a 3x20 at SST/L4 he is "farting" around nor do I think that you need to or feel like you need to "heave your dinner" (have you noticed you have a strange fascination with that btw, I believe third post) to feel that you are getting a good training from your session.

But hey you want to puke...be my guest just make sure you atleast have the courtesy to be at the back of the pace line. I deal with enough guys cleaning out their noses already...lol

-js

Originally Posted by swampy1970

One hour pace (close to a true 25mile TT effort) over 20 minutes isn't a walk in the park but it's not going to be overly taxing either, especially not mentally.

Following many months of 'getting the quality miles in' I used to find that the 'mental' issue was probably the biggest limiter when it came to early season racing performances, especially in time trials. Physically, 40 minutes at the same pace is going to feel more uncomfortable that just 20. 60 minutes and it's going to let you know that you've be riding hard.

You can split it down all you like and turn a 4 hour ride into 16x20 minutes I guess and stop for lunch and a potty break whilst you're at it, and while it probably does do a good job of helping aerobic development it's not going to get you used to riding for that period of time. Where's your comfy chair, towel and cool water half way through a race?

I mostly train alone - I just get too many questions about the PowerCranks that it gets distracting... besides, this year is just being spent rolling around in 50x16 and 15 getting the miles in and the weight down. That and suffering like a pig in 30x27 and 24. LOL It's another way to ensure that I don't have to presoak the jersey to remove someone elses baked-on nasal expulsions.

If someone could point me in the direction of a couple of studies (all done by different folk) that proves that something like 16x20mins is as good as 4 hours straight at the same power, then I'll be the first to eat humble pie.

Originally Posted by swampy1970

One hour pace (close to a true 25mile TT effort) over 20 minutes isn't a walk in the park but it's not going to be overly taxing either, especially not mentally.

Following many months of 'getting the quality miles in' I used to find that the 'mental' issue was probably the biggest limiter when it came to early season racing performances, especially in time trials. Physically, 40 minutes at the same pace is going to feel more uncomfortable that just 20. 60 minutes and it's going to let you know that you've be riding hard.

You can split it down all you like and turn a 4 hour ride into 16x20 minutes I guess and stop for lunch and a potty break whilst you're at it, and while it probably does do a good job of helping aerobic development it's not going to get you used to riding for that period of time. Where's your comfy chair, towel and cool water half way through a race?

I mostly train alone - I just get too many questions about the PowerCranks that it gets distracting... besides, this year is just being spent rolling around in 50x16 and 15 getting the miles in and the weight down. That and suffering like a pig in 30x27 and 24. LOL It's another way to ensure that I don't have to presoak the jersey to remove someone elses baked-on nasal expulsions.

If someone could point me in the direction of a couple of studies (all done by different folk) that proves that something like 16x20mins is as good as 4 hours straight at the same power, then I'll be the first to eat humble pie.

Originally Posted by swampy1970

.... that proves that something like 16x20mins is as good as 4 hours straight at the same power....

Originally Posted by wiredued

Thanks Dave I think I am taking something for granted here so let me ask you this. If I go 2 minutes at 114% then with no break go 16 minutes at 96% avg and then with no break 2 minutes at 114% isn't that going to give me 4 minutes of VO2max targeted training just as if I went 4 minutes straight at 114%?