Request to investigate L.A. !

thunder

downhill also.

thunder

I dont know how you can compare a 10km tt, which is basically a prologue.

limerickman

.......and I think that it would be unwise to try to extrapolate an accusation of doping based upon one ITT result.

__________________
.."But finally the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics. I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. [I]I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets" - this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it - Armstrong 2005 TDF
morelike hypocrisy.

poulidor

Sometimes you have to take time to post.
Go back to look at performance on that TT... and what would you see? That every rider makes a great "absolute" performance...
If Greg Lemond were full doped that day he should have put a gap between other riders but it's no the case!
Now if you look the profile of the stage you will learn that starting line is more than 100m higher between than finish line.
And if you have a video of stage, you will see that riders have a backwind all along the stage. This TT was Versailles - Champs-Elysees.

I like how LA fans are able to reject the most rationnal argument of LA doping but are able to produce the less reasonnable point about their nightmare Greg

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Let Astana and McQuaid whine !

Leafer

And Lemond won the first ITT in that same Tour with a blazing average speed of 44km/hr (granted, it was over 70km).

kennf

Okay, a fast short time trial with a tail wind (using disc wheel and aero bars). What else you got?

__________________
"Don't sweat the petty things, and don't pet the sweaty things"

-- Some dude

Bro Deal

If I remember right, Maso's allegation of Lemond doping was Armstrong saying he would find ten people to claim Lemond doped. Repeating that in his book was ridiculous.

__________________
"You are like the wind and I like the lion. You form the tempest. The sand stings my eyes and the ground is parched. I roar in defiance but you do not hear. But between us there is a difference. I, like the lion, must remain in my place. While you like the wind will never know yours." -- Mulay Hamid El Raisuli, Lord of the Riff, Sultan to the Berbers, Last of the Barbary Pirates

Eldrack

Point in case: I'm not an LA fan, I think he was doped to the gills throughout all his TdF performances. You might be confused by the fact I am highly critical of the way the anti doping authorities have persued this case. They've managed to cock up all the evidence against him so none of it stands up in court hence why he hasn't been convicted. But anyway...

Wow. Seems as easy to provoke a massive response here by critising GL as it is by praising LA.

As I said it's just one piece of 'evidence', something that stands in contrast to the proposition that the guy didn't dope. There where thousands of professional time trials over the distance of 10k between 1989 and 2005 when the record was broken and not one of them was faster.

The downhill nature of the TT course was so small (0.3% gradient) it is negligable and can be ignored given that other factors can be. So, out of those 1000's of TT's that have taken place, hundreds will have been on a flat course and there will have been quite a few with a nice tailwind (ok, it's a fairly handwaving statistical arguement but I can't be bothered to look up course and conditions for hundreds of races just to prove my point). So replicating the conditions isn't a problem.

You then have Gred Lemond racing the fastest TT ever against riders with better equipement (work a couple of kph over his kit). That seems odd to me. Also his record stood all the way through the EPO/Blood doping era. To think that he did it without 'assistance' is hard.

If you think about it you just end up replicating the arguements used for LA. Saying Gred Lemond could win a TdF against doped up riders because he was some how magically more gifted than the rest of them is crap. Sure the dope wasn't as good then, but over a race the length of the TdF it shows.

Maybe he was just using a higher cadence though?

Bro Deal

The 2005 ITT was the shortest ITT in the TdF since 1989.

__________________
"You are like the wind and I like the lion. You form the tempest. The sand stings my eyes and the ground is parched. I roar in defiance but you do not hear. But between us there is a difference. I, like the lion, must remain in my place. While you like the wind will never know yours." -- Mulay Hamid El Raisuli, Lord of the Riff, Sultan to the Berbers, Last of the Barbary Pirates

thunder

0.3% is very definitely a material number. If it was dead flat, and no false flat rise, no technical corners, then that is a great example for a power tt.

You only need to see the speed of Wiggins over 4km. I dare say Wiggins could do 10 km on the track in well under 11 minutes.

So that works out to Lemond yes?

And if Lemond has a following wind, that would negate the aero qualities on the track tt bike.

poulidor

100 m height gives a huge advantage, at least 1mn, probably 2mn !

Easy to calculate. Take a slope of 10% !
On flat section rider speed at 45km/h and by riding down his speed is 90km/h. Times are 1'30 and 45s so a gain of 45s. But at 90km/h the drag is 4 times greater than at 45km/h.
So on a small slope of 1%, the rider would only speed to 48km/h, so the drag is far less and there si more time to gain.

__________________
Let Astana and McQuaid whine !

jimmypop

I was trying to make two points, but I was a smartass about it:

1) Armstrong's natural limits and abilities don't match Lemond's;

2) There's scant evidence that Lemond doped, anecdotal or otherwise; further, there's even anecdotal evidence that he went to great lengths to avoid doping, which is supported by third parties.

But, if it turns out he's a hypocrite, then I won't lose sleep. His message would be irreparably harmed, however.

Eldrack

Ok, i've gone at look at the numbers and that 0.3% gradient is worth around 35 watts (so massive cock up on my part by neglecting it) at the speed GL was doing. That would equate, I think, to the difference between modern Aero kit and GL's old school Aero kit so any flat course with a tailwind done by a modern day TTist is worthy for comparison.

Point of interest, Conconi doped up Moser for his 1984 world hour record, so blood doping would have been available to Lemond, which in my mind would make the figures stack.

In the end he won 3 TdF against opposition who had easy access to dope that wouldn't show up on tests, which in my mind makes it pretty much impossible for him not have been on the gear. Similar position to all the people who where saying LA was doping before the evidence (which was subsequently screwed up) came out.

On the wiggins point he would do 10k in about 11 minutes, so 25k in around 29 or something close. Would all come down to just how strong that tail wind was.

Eldrack

Back on topic: Yes they should investigate L.A. Hopefully then they'll be able to find something that will stand up in court and can nail him with.