Where the cyclists in America belong: back alleys, gutters andsidewalks

Tom Keats

In article <C432AE33.2184B%pretty_good@every.thing>,
Steve Ball <pretty_good@every.thing> writes:
> Tom Keats:
>
>> In article <C4327B94.21839%pretty_good@every.thing>,
>> Steve Ball <pretty_good@every.thing> writes:
>>> Tom Keats:
>>>
>>>> In article <slrng0o89i.qpk.don@manx.misty.com>,
>>>> don@manx.misty.com (Don Klipstein) writes:
>>>>
>>>>> The main offense of cyclists against cars is running red lights while
>>>>> cars that have green lights have expectations of right-of-way.
>>>>
>>>> Bullshit! Riders do /not/ suicidally barge into
>>>> cross traffic. No rational person does.
>>>
>>> He didn't say they did. Just that they stop bikes run far more red lights
>>> than cars generally do.
>>
>> If a vehicle operator goes through a red light at a minor
>> intersection when there's no cross-traffic, where's the harm?
>
> I guess the harm is that's what good for the goose has to be good for the
> gander. If cyclists can decide which traffic signs to obey and when, why not
> motorists?

That is indeed what happens in real life.

> I mean, if I car goes through a red light when there's no traffic
> on then intersecting road, where's the harm?

Exactly. As long as drivers are as on-the-ball wrt
watching out for cross traffic as cyclists are.

> Do you want to apply this to
> speed limits too? (Cyclists - even me - regularly exceed the posted 30 kph
> in Sydney's Centennial park; motorists get booked.)

Drivers' speeds don't really affect cyclists as much
as people would like to think. Yes, they do have an
effect, but we can deal with it.

> We have fundamentally different views here in that I enjoy my car, whereas
> you never want to own one, but try to make room for that not all motorists
> are the enemy

It seems to me that drivers tend to view cyclists as
"the enemy" more than vice verso. In this very subthread,
cyclists are accused of "bullying" drivers. Go figure.
We and our 20-pound machines are out to make life miserable
for people in their 3-ton, rolling, climate-controlled
living rooms. Yeah, right.

> but many, like a lot of people people, if you choose to make
> them so, will accept the mantle.

This is just Usenet. In real life, people are slightly more
adept at getting along with each other.

I'm quite prepared to get along nicely with reasonable,
sociable people -- even on the streets & roads.

And I'm certainly no bully. Not many riders are.

Many more drivers are.


cheers,
Tom
--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

Tom Keats

In article <qsjo04hl9u07qvaefngflapv0t9276pdui@4ax.com>,
Gunner Asch <gunner@NOSPAMlightspeed.net> writes:
>
> How about you and yours simply obeying the Vehicle Code and not press
> your luck playing Chicken with 15,000 lb moving mounds of steel?

We don't do that, and every reasonable, rational person
knows that it's a red herring to suggest we do so.

This bullshit about cylcists making life hard for drivers
is just too much!

Unless by "playing Chicken" you mean we have a presence
on the streets that compels your twisted psychology to
maliciously aim at us.

If you shoved your hate up your ass, it might return
to where it belongs. Harbour & keep it there, and
strive to not let it leak out into the world.

I hope you don't get involved in a single-vehicle
collision with a stout tree (where the tree at
least survives.)

--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

ComandanteBanana

On Apr 22, 9:34*pm, Gunner Asch <gun...@NOSPAMlightspeed.net> wrote:
> On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 13:33:27 -0700 (PDT), ComandanteBanana
>
>
>
>
>
> <nolionnoprob...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >On Apr 22, 2:49*pm, Gunner Asch <gun...@NOSPAMlightspeed.net> wrote:
>
> >> >What do you need to survive in the jungle?
>
> >> >- Knife (for peeling fruits)
>
> >> >- CD player (to block out noise from roaring lions)
>
> >> Waste of space and batteries. *If you need music, an MP3 player is
> >> much better, and most run off (2) AAA batteries, which may be
> >> recharged from a simple solar cell charger. *Best get one with a radio
> >> in it.
>
> >> >- Toilet paper (often toilets are out of them)
>
> >> >- Lipstics and mirror (ladies only)
>
> >> Chapstick yes, wtf lipstick?????
>
> >In the cement jungle, ladies do their lips all the time. Too bad if
> >they don't see the cyclist.
>
> Huh?
>
>
>
> >> >- Bananas (to eat, they can be dried)
>
> >> They are good, but not all that good.
>
> >They say "it's the perfect food"...
>
> They were wrong. *Beans and rice combined are the perfect food.
> Bananas will keep you going for a very long time indeed, but you will
> ultimately have issues with missing trace elements and amino acids.

I LOVE rice and beans, but I guess it would have to be brown rice to
be nutritious.

> >Well, it's always good. I want to dry foods for my canoe trips and
> >have somewhat successful, but I mostly do daytrips.
>
> Where you may have rescue.

Yeah, no more than a mile away from shore.

>
> Now what do you have stored at home or in your vehicle?
>
> Can you manage 72 hours at 2 minutes notice? How about 3 weeks?

Nope. I don't see the case in preparing for WWIII.

I think we should work toward prevent it though.

ComandanteBanana

On Apr 22, 9:56*pm, Gunner Asch <gun...@NOSPAMlightspeed.net> wrote:

> All brought to a screeching halt by the anti-gun zealots.
> When the educational system is controlled by Liberals..the last thing
> they want is anything to do with firearms.

You bet I'm not a Conservative, but I see a sort of Libertarian model
fitting for America... the Swiss (and they even have universal
healthcare and tough environmental policies for those on the left)...

DIFFERENT CULTURES, DIFFERENT SOLUTIONS. The apparent contradiction
between "no king of the jungle" and Scandinavia, where they have
royalty, is easy to explain: Their lion have been tamed, or better
said, he was smart enough to tame himself (though still there in
international affairs). It ranks #1 in standard of living, but that is
due to having the lowest corruption in the world AND having high
taxes, something unlikely to be desired by many... But other systems
are available: First, the decentralized Swiss system* has a lower
taxation rate and introduces a very democratic principle among
competitive cantons and communes: VOTE WITH YOUR FEET; second, the
successful cooperatives that exist in places like Israel, the Basque
Country and Denmark. Coops are the ideal in that there's no lion in
them. They can reach the 'good life' even without money.

*The Swiss model is an alternative for those who hate the word
"socialism" in any form and it's cited by the Libertarians.

ComandanteBanana

On Apr 22, 10:38 am, frkry...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Apr 22, 8:52 am, ComandanteBanana <nolionnoprob...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> > On Apr 21, 7:25 pm, frkry...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > > Even someone as fearful as you should be able to deal with the
> > > occasional skinned knee. So again: quit whining.
>
> > I still remember that guy that cited statistics like you, only to be
> > killed by a drunk driver.
>
> Yes, and I've had at least four friends killed while riding in motor
> vehicles. I've had four close family members seriously injured in
> car crashes, one of whom is mildly crippled for life.
>
> For every bicycling fatality in the US, there are roughly 8 pedestrian
> fatalities, roughly 60 motorist fatalities, and roughly 1000 heart
> fatalities.
>
> Yet you whine ONLY about the rare bike fatalities, or the
> possibilities thereof. You go out of your way to make cycling sound
> much more dangerous than it is.
>
> Great way to discourage people from ever riding a bike. Who pays your
> salary? Is it General Motors, or is it Exxon?
>
> - Frank Krygowski

Frank, you are not very smart, or you are just playing dumb. I'm
saying IT'S A JUNGLE OUT THERE because I propose to fix it. That's why
I speak about "the revolution" and coming out of the jungle. You, on
the other hand, want to deny something so obvious that you look either
out of touch with reality or have an agenda in mind, and offer no hope
other than rider training or mental toughness. How about the stupid
drivers and the stupid traffic laws out there? Haven't you noticed the
few cyclists that dare commute to work in America (a pitiful .4% of
the total commuting population) mostly ride on the sidewalks? So *YOU*
are the one defending the status quo, one where GM and Exxon thrive,
one where size matters, and rats run for their lives...

The Art of Urban Cycling: Lessons from the Street

"The bicyclist is under attack from all directions - the streets are
ragged, the air is poison, and the drivers are angry. As if that
weren’t enough, the urban cyclist must carry the weight of history
along on every ride.
After a brief heyday at the turn of the twentieth century, American
cyclists fell out of the social consciousness, becoming an
afterthought when our cities were planned and built. Cyclists today
are left to navigate, like rats in a sewer, through a hard and
unsympathetic world that was not made for them. Yet, with the proper
attitude and a bit of knowledge, urban cyclists can thrive in this
hostile environment."

http://www.amazon.com/Art-Urban-Cyc...6001352-1213502

And we need to fix the sewer...

Gunner Asch

On Wed, 23 Apr 2008 03:26:52 -0700, tkeats2005@hotmail.com (Tom Keats)
wrote:

>And I'm certainly no bully. Not many riders are.
>
>Many more drivers are.


Your very one sided and biased opinion is noted.

Gunner

Political Correctness is a doctrine fostered by a delusional,
illogical liberal minority, and rabidly promoted by an
unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the
proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Gunner Asch

On Wed, 23 Apr 2008 04:02:55 -0700, tkeats2005@hotmail.com (Tom Keats)
wrote:

>In article <qsjo04hl9u07qvaefngflapv0t9276pdui@4ax.com>,
> Gunner Asch <gunner@NOSPAMlightspeed.net> writes:
>>
>> How about you and yours simply obeying the Vehicle Code and not press
>> your luck playing Chicken with 15,000 lb moving mounds of steel?
>
>We don't do that, and every reasonable, rational person
>knows that it's a red herring to suggest we do so.

Unfortunatly, all too many cyclists do exactly that. I attribute much
of it to ignorance, but a great deal of it to arrogance.
>
>This bullshit about cylcists making life hard for drivers
>is just too much!

Denial..etc etc.
>
>Unless by "playing Chicken" you mean we have a presence
>on the streets that compels your twisted psychology to
>maliciously aim at us.

Running red lights, weaving in and out of parked cars, etc etc are all
marks of safety minded bike riders, right?
>
>If you shoved your hate up your ass, it might return
>to where it belongs. Harbour & keep it there, and
>strive to not let it leak out into the world.

Hate? Hummm disgust at buffoons is hate?

Methinks you doth protest way way too much. Afraid to look at your own
riding "skills", Id bet.
>
>I hope you don't get involved in a single-vehicle
>collision with a stout tree (where the tree at
>least survives.)

So far, after 15 million miles and a number of driving awards, Ive not
hit a tree. But Ill let you know when I do.

Be sure to carry your Organ Donor card in your personal effects
Someone will need it. Fortunately, they cant do brains yet..so the
recipient will be safe.

Gunner


Political Correctness is a doctrine fostered by a delusional,
illogical liberal minority, and rabidly promoted by an
unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the
proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Tom Sherman

ComandanteBanana wrote:
> [...]Coops are the ideal in that there's no lion in
> them.[...]

But coops are full of chickens.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

Tom Sherman

Gunner Asch wrote:
> [...]
> You seem to forget that Denial is not a river in Egypt.
>
Denial is a full-size SUV from GM, but they mistakenly transpose it as
"Denali".

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

Tom Sherman

Gunner Asch wrote:
> On Wed, 23 Apr 2008 07:24:48 -0700 (PDT), ComandanteBanana
> <nolionnoproblem@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> On Apr 22, 9:34 pm, Gunner Asch <gun...@NOSPAMlightspeed.net> wrote:
>>> [...]
>>>
>>> Where you may have rescue.
>> Yeah, no more than a mile away from shore.
>
> Ayup. A PDF and some dog paddling and you are safe.

So I should take my computer with Acrobat Writer when boating?

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

Tom Keats

In article <a7qu04d2eq0e220s125qmh2kt8nku1fmjf@4ax.com>,
Gunner Asch <gunner@NOSPAMlightspeed.net> writes:
> On Wed, 23 Apr 2008 03:26:52 -0700, tkeats2005@hotmail.com (Tom Keats)
> wrote:
>
>>And I'm certainly no bully. Not many riders are.
>>
>>Many more drivers are.
>
>
> Your very one sided and biased opinion is noted.

Gooood for you. Finish your dinner without getting
any on your clothes, and you'll get a nice dessert.


--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

Tom Keats

In article <f8qu049kid7b0l9itnlo48ha02m083qcfg@4ax.com>,
Gunner Asch <gunner@NOSPAMlightspeed.net> writes:

> Felcher..Im a bike rider too. Prejudices my ass. I also drive some
> 65,000 miles a year, a fair amount of it in urban area with bike
> riders. And you?

Goof.

My bikes /are/ my cars.

So you drive 65,000 miles a year in an urban area fraught
with bike riders such as myself, eh?

If ya wanna be proud of that, go ahead. Knock yerself out.

>>You use question marks too much.
>
> You seem to forget that Denial is not a river in Egypt.

At least I know how to punctuate. <shrug> Forgive me.
I'm literate.

--
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

Tom Keats

In article <lbqu04db42rhobfeqs625kirsqc195cmr8@4ax.com>,
Gunner Asch <gunner@NOSPAMlightspeed.net> writes:

>>If you shoved your hate up your ass, it might return
>>to where it belongs. Harbour & keep it there, and
>>strive to not let it leak out into the world.
>
> Hate? Hummm disgust at buffoons is hate?
>
> Methinks you doth protest way way too much. Afraid to look at your own
> riding "skills", Id bet.

You're the driver who complains about being
"bullied" by cyclists.

I'm not complaining about anything. I can
right handily deal with the likes of you.

>>I hope you don't get involved in a single-vehicle
>>collision with a stout tree (where the tree at
>>least survives.)
>
> So far, after 15 million miles and a number of driving awards, Ive not
> hit a tree. But Ill let you know when I do.
>
> Be sure to carry your Organ Donor card in your personal effects
> Someone will need it. Fortunately, they cant do brains yet..so the
> recipient will be safe.

If "they" can't do brains yet, how could there
be recipients?

I see your question mark key is working all
too well, but your apostrophe key isn't at all.

Maybe I should carry a Keyboard Donor card.


--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

Gunner

On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 02:21:42 -0700, tkeats2005@hotmail.com (Tom Keats)
wrote:

>In article <f8qu049kid7b0l9itnlo48ha02m083qcfg@4ax.com>,
> Gunner Asch <gunner@NOSPAMlightspeed.net> writes:
>
>> Felcher..Im a bike rider too. Prejudices my ass. I also drive some
>> 65,000 miles a year, a fair amount of it in urban area with bike
>> riders. And you?
>
>Goof.
>
>My bikes /are/ my cars.

Bummer. Couldnt afford a motor vehicle eh?
>
>So you drive 65,000 miles a year in an urban area fraught
>with bike riders such as myself, eh?

Urban and rural.
>
>If ya wanna be proud of that, go ahead. Knock yerself out.

Why shouldnt I be?
>
>>>You use question marks too much.
>>
>> You seem to forget that Denial is not a river in Egypt.
>
>At least I know how to punctuate. <shrug> Forgive me.
>I'm literate.

Spelling/punctuation flames are the last resort of the buffoon.

Gunner