What is the evidence that training with power is superior to . . .

Squint

I'm just trying to dilute whatever effectiveness Frank gets by starting these threads. Equal coverage--sort of along the lines of regulations for election campaigns.

Pros use powermeters:





What don't you see? Powercranks!

acoggan

Ironically, just yesterday I was looking at the pics of the finish on Brasstown Bald at the Tour of Georgia, and noticed that Sivtsov, Lowe, and Leipheimer were using powermeters. You wouldn't have seen something like that just a few years ago...

Fday

Thanks for that. What was asked though, in the original post, was for evidence that training with power was superior to other, readily available and older, methods to "improve as a cyclist". That is the claim that many make. Just wanted to know what the evidence was to support such claims.

swampy1970

Now you know why I said what I said earlier - I evalute my own equipment based on at least 3 months worth of usage (if it involves a different technique/position). If PC's didn't come with a 3 month money back deal then I wouldn't have tried them. Right now I don't have anything pressing interms of having to be fit for racing etc - just need to lose weight and then decide if I want to get serious which makes this a perfect year for me to "play" with stuff and see what happens.

If it's a piece of kit such as a disk wheel, saddle or funky handlebars then testing those at speed becomes a little more nebulous - although one would expect to see and improvement with the disk but unlike the climb I test on that's pretty sheltered from the prevailing winds I don't know of somewhere that's wind free for the most part. Then I have to go off manufacturers claims.

swampy1970

You don't see Powercranks in road races for pretty much the same reason you don't see aero or Cinelli's spinaci bars... I don't think they're legal in mass start races in many countries.

... besides the big downside to riding on PowerCranks is that it makes descending rather "odd" not something that you'd want going downhill with 200 other riders at 50+mph.

RChung

Well, in the absence of PMs, most riders thought cadence was important. Now we're englightened enough to recognize cadence for the red herring it is.

swampy1970

Do you think that would change if the UCI removed the minimum weight requirement for the bikes? How many riders do you think would swap the information for less weight?

I wonder, if you can use a combination of heart rate and power to subjectively tell that you're really not going to have a good day, so you could put on your best poker face and concentrate your efforts into pulling a 'big bluff'. LOL Kinda like the "anti-Armstrong" bluff on the way to Alpe D'Huez in 2001.

Fday

Well, I was surprised that Luttrell got the results they did in 6 weeks. But, there is a substantial difference in intensity and training method between the two studies. Luttrell had the subjects doing 3 1 hour sessions a week for 6 weeks. One has to go beyond the superficialities if one hopes to be able to understand and explain differences.

The SmartCranks study had only 2 sessions a week for 5 weeks (so, about half the sessions even though it lasted almost as long) and then had some crazy 3 minute pedaling periods as stimulus during those sessions (I am still not sure I understand what they did). I think this study simply points out that any training tool must be used long enough and properly to demonstrate any benefit. It certainly didn't test our recommended use for optimal benefit.

This study was discussed in detail over at slowtwitch awhile back. link here

RChung

Hmmm. So you're saying this your preferred order is:

1. Your own three month long trials.
2. Manufacturer's claims.

How many steps after (2) are there before you get to independent scientific research using randomized controlled trials?

Fday

You have a pretty low estimation of what it takes to win the TDF if you think that an increase of 40% power in a 20 minute test (Conconi protocol) would translate to win in a 3 week stage race.
You live quite close to one of the major pros who is a big proponent of the PC's (Magnus Backstedt) yet seemingly find it impossible to meet with and talk with him about what he thinks about the product. What are you afraid of, the truth?
Hey, people tell us they are going to try something and we let people know. If they fail, so be it.
Ugh, I misunderstood. It was a ST group ride, not a race. When I heard she was going to be riding the same mountain that weekend I thought she was doing the "race". She didn't show up because it wasn't a race, it was a ride. If she had shown up she would have kicked everyone's butt. Saw here at WC this year. She now has more national championships than she is old. Soon she will be old enough to race with the "adults". It will be fun.
RChung was also forwarded the unadulterated file. The Spanish guy in question figured out how the file was adulterated and, probably by whom. But, what happened, happened. The original file has been retrieved and submitted to both me and RChung to confirm that it is unadulterated. However, you will never see it as he ask both of us to keep it to ourselves as he was so pissed off at the whole scene, accusing him of deliberately lying. You may confirm that with RChung if you like.
Most probably.

But, the purpose of this thread was to put the "claims" regarding training with a power meter under scruitiny. Seems you have conveniently managed to ignore this, choosing instead to throw mud at unrelated issues.

Fday

Maybe 1 in 500 new users can get on them and go off for a 1 or 2 hour ride without much difficulty. One customer rode from seattle to portland on them on the 3rd ride. These people probably have much less to gain from the product. They have done their home work. Good for them.

We don't say it is impossible to develop this skill without PC's. It is just extremely difficult, to the point that most people, including the pros, have lots of room for improvement. However, it is not possible to know how good you really are at this skill without trying them.

Steve_B

What would be that person's motivation for doing so?

RChung

Ugh. I know many people think that slowtwitch thread is amusing. I think it's terribly depressing. I won't comment further on it.

ric_stern/RST

i have no idea what a 20-minute test has to do with Conconi, or that, that was what you were suggesting (as i recalled you said a 40% increase in aerobic power). I'm not sure how a 40% increase in aerobic power wouldn't help you do well at the TdF, but even if you were missing e.g. a psychological component the average 2nd cat would still do extraordinarily well at the Tour. This hasn't been documented, and nor has any other increase in power apart from Frank testing on his Cateye turbo trainer which isn't verifiable, and some bloke (phil?) who went faster in a pursuit. In the 10 plus years (??) of selling PC this seems to be it (i.e. these are the two improvements you're always harping on about).


i don't live there anymore. but even if i did, i only ever saw him train on his SRMs and all the race photos i see of him (and some training photos) he's either using his SRM or standard team issue cranks



hmmmmm



coulda, woulda, shoulda. wow! if i turned up at the TdF i'd kick everyone's butt. They have to stop me from turning up so as too not make the others look 'bad'.



don't recall that ending at slowtwitch. so, the file was tampered with by a 3rd party. Anyone call in Mulder and Scully?

If Robert wants to let me know, i'm sure he can contact me




not at all. the others have pointed out the point i would have made about power meters. you just don't get it.

ric

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