Page 17 - What is the evidence that training with power is superior to . . .

30-04.-2008, 03:46 AM

#241

Fday

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Re: What is the evidence that training with power is superior to . . .

Quote:

Originally Posted by acoggan

In the most egregious cases, expulsion from the society, and refusal to publish any papers in the future.

Do you consider the Luttrell, Potteiger "ommission" an egregious case? Have you taken the time to report them to whatever society they might belong to for this egregious ommission or do you just continue to denigrate their character publicly without their being able to rebut. They did state that the results were not to be constituted as an endorsement of the product. Anyhow, what is the typical penalty for less egregious cases? I suspect people remind them about it and then move on. You seem unable to do that.

30-04.-2008, 03:48 AM

#242

Fday

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Re: What is the evidence that training with power is superior to . . .

Quote:

Originally Posted by Watoni

Stop already!

Power is an exceptionally useful training metric, but not a training method, as so many have said.

If anything, PC and other techniques may lead to improved efficiency, which I know many folks here do not ascribe to; however, that is the real question in my mind. I have two bikes of the same weight/wheels set up differently and with 5 watts more on average I did over two minutes better on a 7km climb. There is something else going on there other than just watts/kg -- power doesn't explain it, but by being such an exact measure power gives a clue as to how to attempt to get at something that is harder to measure ...

sorry to beat a dead horse but the original question is not whether power is a useful training metric, but whether it is more useful than other training metrics, and if so, what is the evidence for that conclusion.

30-04.-2008, 03:55 AM

#243

RChung

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Posts: 192

Re: What is the evidence that training with power is superior to . . .

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fday

Hey, do you know of some [RCTs] regarding the use of the PM? That was what I was asking for back in post 1.

Nope, but that's probably because a PM is just a measuring device. BTW, although a large fraction (weighted by frequency of procedure) of surgical procedures are "evidence-based," only around a quarter are based on gold-standard RCTs.

30-04.-2008, 03:55 AM

#244

swampy1970

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Re: What is the evidence that training with power is superior to . . .

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex Simmons

yeah, you are right, it was you that mentioned the cranks on post number two of this thread. Then Frank took you up on post number three

I'll make sure that I keep my spending habbits off the board then

Not that it was anything to do directly with the question that the OP posted...

30-04.-2008, 04:03 AM

#245

swampy1970

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Re: What is the evidence that training with power is superior to . . .

Quote:

Originally Posted by RChung

Well, in the absence of PMs, most riders thought cadence was important. Now we're englightened enough to recognize cadence for the red herring it is.

I've always chosen the cadence that gives me the best speed of the type of event and level of training. Pretty simple to test on a trainer. I very rarely time trialed at above 95rpm - mostly between 85 to 90 rpm. I just couldn't keep the speed in that low TT position at high rpms.

30-04.-2008, 04:05 AM

#246

Fday

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Re: What is the evidence that training with power is superior to . . .

Quote:

Originally Posted by RChung

Hey, tons of things that are done in medicine have very little good science to back them up as being either safer or more effective than alternative treatments and sometimes poor evidence to back up they are safer or more effective than doing nothing.

Further, if a patient get better the doctor has no way of knowing whether it was because of his intervention or not. When the patient gets better, which happens much more often than not, usually the patient will give the doctor credit and the doctor willingly takes it. This last issue is similar to the question I am asking about PM's. Lots of people give them lots of credit. Is it deserved?

30-04.-2008, 04:17 AM

#247

Felt_Rider

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Re: What is the evidence that training with power is superior to . . .

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fday

This thread was started asking about the evidence regarding the usefulness of power meters. I did not bring up PC's. They are repeatedly brought up here as a way if diverting attention from the weakness of their positions regarding PM's. At least there are some studies regarding PC's. Shoot the messenger. Hmmm. Can't shoot the messenger let's lambast those crazy PC's. I will answer some of the crazy assertions when they appear. Thanks to you all for bringing up the name and keeping this thread hot. Any mention is free advertising, so they say. :-)

From my perspective it hasn't been good publicity.
Do you think this has been good advertising?

Honestly, I like to see people prosper so I hope things work out for you.

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30-04.-2008, 04:31 AM

#248

RChung

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Re: What is the evidence that training with power is superior to . . .

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fday

Further, if a patient get better the doctor has no way of knowing whether it was because of his intervention or not. When the patient gets better, which happens much more often than not, usually the patient will give the doctor credit and the doctor willingly takes it. This last issue is similar to the question I am asking about PM's. Lots of people give them lots of credit. Is it deserved?

If you don't collect the data needed to measure a change, how do you know a change has occurred? This is particularly true if the change is small or slow. Is it possible to lose weight without a bathroom scale? Sure. If you have a bathroom scale, does it guarantee that you're going to lose weight? Nope. It seems to me you're asking, "what's the evidence that bathroom scales make people lose weight more effectively than other ways of losing weight?" A bathroom scale isn't a method for losing weight. It's just a measuring device.

30-04.-2008, 04:39 AM

#249

acoggan

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Posts: 2,571

Re: What is the evidence that training with power is superior to . . .

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fday

Do you consider the Luttrell, Potteiger "ommission" an egregious case?

Not really.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fday

Have you taken the time to report them to whatever society they might belong to for this egregious ommission

Since 1) I'm not a member of the same society, and 2) it's not the worst thing in the world, the answer would be "no".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fday

or do you just continue to denigrate their character publicly without their being able to rebut.

I'm not denigrating them, I'm stating facts regarding their paper so that people have all the information needed to evaluate it properly. If Luttrell et al. had done what they are ethically obligated to do, I wouldn't have to do it for them.

30-04.-2008, 05:00 AM

#250

Fday

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Re: What is the evidence that training with power is superior to . . .

Quote:

Originally Posted by RChung

You are correct. I am asking a similar question. I am asking it because some here and in other places) have touted using the PM (bathroom scale) as a superior method of improving performance (losing weight). We have a whole forum devoted to the topic. I suspect this forum is not here so people can discuss how accurate a measuring tool this is. For those who make claims for the instrument that go beyond it simply being a measuring tool, I just wonder where those claims come from or the validity documented.

30-04.-2008, 05:02 AM

#251

Fday

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Re: What is the evidence that training with power is superior to . . .

Quote:

Originally Posted by acoggan

Not really.

Since 1) I'm not a member of the same society, and 2) it's not the worst thing in the world, the answer would be "no".

I'm not denigrating them, I'm stating facts regarding their paper so that people have all the information needed to evaluate it properly. If Luttrell et al. had done what they are ethically obligated to do, I wouldn't have to do it for them.

Thanks for clearing that up. You make it sound like it is the worst thing in the world (and you are denigrating them) when it is the only thing you will mention about the paper whenever you bring it up.

30-04.-2008, 05:05 AM

#252

Watoni

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Re: What is the evidence that training with power is superior to . . .

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fday

sorry to beat a dead horse

This is all just silly chatter (Geschwaetz) ...

30-04.-2008, 05:07 AM

#253

Fday

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Re: What is the evidence that training with power is superior to . . .

Quote:

Originally Posted by Felt_Rider

From my perspective it hasn't been good publicity.
Do you think this has been good advertising?

Honestly, I like to see people prosper so I hope things work out for you.

I don't know, nor do I care. Very few people actually see these things such that even if I pissed of everyone of them it would make little difference as most of them were already pissed off at me. I didn't start this thread to sell PC's. I started it to see what the evidence to support PM's was, and where better to go than a forum dedicated to the device.

30-04.-2008, 05:18 AM

#254

Felt_Rider

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Re: What is the evidence that training with power is superior to . . .

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fday

You are correct. I am asking a similar question. I am asking it because some here and in other places) have touted using the PM (bathroom scale) as a superior method of improving performance (losing weight). We have a whole forum devoted to the topic. I suspect this forum is not here so people can discuss how accurate a measuring tool this is. For those who make claims for the instrument that go beyond it simply being a measuring tool, I just wonder where those claims come from or the validity documented.

I am definately a cycling newbie and much of what I attempt to read on the power forums go over my head, but in my simplest mind of trying to comprehend all of this I don't recall anyone glorifying the PM as if it somehow magically boosted performance. Most of what I read is guys sharing hard, hard work on the trainer, on the road or somewhere putting out blood, sweat and tears. When I read the many post by power users I seem to pick up on old fashioned effort and that effort is expressed with each other on this forum in a format that shows those hard hours of training. Or it allows the more knowledeable to coach those who are trying to put forth the correct effort by analyzing data.

Like others said you only see the aspect that you want to see (or you are trolling) and you must not comprehend that these guys are actually talking about physical effort more so than making claims about an electronic gadget. The gadget does what the gadget is supposed to do and nothing else.

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30-04.-2008, 05:19 AM

#255

doctorSpoc

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Re: What is the evidence that training with power is superior to . . .

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fday

Fday, you know as well as anyone in this forum that this is a forum where probably on the order of ~95% of the posts discuss cycling training... and probably ~5% using power meters (if not less). the reason i, imagine a separate forum is/was necessary is because PM users use different language than those who use traditional training aids like HRM so it would make discourse difficult between the two... this is really a cycling training forum for those that use power meters... and not a power meter forum.

and c'mon.. no one could be that stupid.. how many brain cells does it take to understand that a scale is a very handy tool and makes life easier for those who want to lose weight? how the hell do you know if what you are doing is working? sure there are other means, sure, but why the hell not just take the 5 seconds and step on a scale and see what you weigh? similarly why the hell not just look down at your power meter and see what's going on... it can only be 1 of two things either you are just pulling our chains or you are a complete idiot... c'mon, man... you're just looking incredibly silly now... time to stop.

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