Page 2 - What is the evidence that training with power is superior to . . .

26-04.-2008, 04:32 PM	#16
fergie Registered User Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Christchurch, New Zealand Posts: 377	Re: What is the evidence that training with power is superior to . . . I find the power meter really helps with pacing in a training session. Plenty of good research on working on an even pace. Helps me in races to conserve energy in the bunch It's how you can analyse the data at the end of the day to decide how effective training was. Wattage has been used as the best metric to quantify effort in most research way before Power Meters were developed. Recent advances include the performance manager which after a years use is the most effective way of quantifying training I have come across.

26-04.-2008, 05:45 PM

#17

Bikeridindude

Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2006

Posts: 127

Re: What is the evidence that training with power is superior to . . .

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fday

training with any other effort/intensity feedback system such as HR, perceived exertion, stopwatch, etc.

I have been asking this on slowtwitch and the best I can ascertain from the replies the so-called evidence to support these devices and this method of training is entirely anecdotal. Thought I would ask here.

That's like asking for evidence of which color is the best. The only evidence you'll find is anecdotal because that's all that exists. It's all personal preference my friend. And no matter what anybody says, yellow is the best!!

oops, I mean

26-04.-2008, 10:37 PM

#18

Steve_B

Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2007

Posts: 438

Re: What is the evidence that training with power is superior to . . .

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fday

I did not pose the question to find out why you think the method to be advantageous. I understand the arguments. But, is there a single shred of evidence that supports that what "everyone" thinks to be true. People once thought the world was flat or that men couldn't fly or that the 4 minute mile was impossible. What we sometimes think to be true sometimes is not. It always helps to have evidence to support the contention or proof.

Again, I repeat my first question to you: What is "this method of training"?

26-04.-2008, 10:41 PM

#19

Fday

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Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: California

Posts: 610

Re: What is the evidence that training with power is superior to . . .

Quote:

Originally Posted by fergie

I find the power meter really helps with pacing in a training session. Plenty of good research on working on an even pace. Helps me in races to conserve energy in the bunch

I would be interested in seeing what the data is that says that working on an even pace is superior to the alternative.

Quote:

It's how you can analyse the data at the end of the day to decide how effective training was. Wattage has been used as the best metric to quantify effort in most research way before Power Meters were developed.

I guess this statement goes, in part, to the question. If it is being used to analyze what you did after the training session "to see how good it was" how does that insure the workout was better than what you would have done without the power meter?

Quote:

Recent advances include the performance manager which after a years use is the most effective way of quantifying training I have come across.

By "most effective" do you mean most convenient for you? Or, do you have some other definition of "effective" that you are using here.

26-04.-2008, 10:48 PM

#20

Fday

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Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: California

Posts: 610

Re: What is the evidence that training with power is superior to . . .

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve_B

Again, I repeat my first question to you: What is "this method of training"?

What is the method?. Whatever method that requires using a power meter as opposed ti any other method of measuring intensity. So, you tell me. If you can come up with any "method of training" that requires a power meter that has a demonstrable advantage over other methods that would satisfy my request.

26-04.-2008, 11:35 PM

#21

acoggan

Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2003

Posts: 2,543

Re: What is the evidence that training with power is superior to . . .

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve_B

I guess I don't need a study to convince me of the need for precision.

Unless he's stupid, Frank doesn't either - it just apparently bothers him when people spend money on a powermeter vs. his product, thus cutting into his bottom line.

26-04.-2008, 11:36 PM

#22

acoggan

Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2003

Posts: 2,543

Re: What is the evidence that training with power is superior to . . .

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fday

What is the method?. Whatever method that requires using a power meter as opposed ti any other method of measuring intensity.

Your argument is a red herring: there is no method of training that requires using a powermeter.

27-04.-2008, 12:08 AM	#23
doctorSpoc Registered User Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Canada Posts: 851	Re: What is the evidence that training with power is superior to . . . have to agree with most of the others... the question itself doesn't make any kind of sense, since using a power meter isn't in and of itself a method of training... it's only a method of measuring intensity. and of all the methods you mentioned (HR, RPE, stopwatch etc) it's the most accurate method since you are measuring intensity directly... what's the best method of determining how much power i'm currently putting out? measure the power! but you can train well, poorly or otherwise with a power meter, just as you could with any other method... at least i know with my power meter, training plans don't magically pop out of the device every day... someone needs to show me where the training plan button is on my power tap.. but seriously Fday... the question REALLY doesn't make sense...

27-04.-2008, 12:49 AM	#24
Squint Registered User Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 330	Re: What is the evidence that training with power is superior to . . . Frank is just wondering why: -top athletes are always being seen using SRMs and other powermeters -they often pay retail for them -often several thousand dollars for SRMs -SRM doesn't have to pay them to use their product -marketing of powermeters is viral -they basically sell themselves -thousands of people champion their use (users, coaches, pros) In contrast: -PCs have to be given away to top pros -yet seeing any using them is like is Sasquatch sighting -Marketing PCs is done primarily by one person with only a few PC cultists assisting Frank -people are generally quite skeptical about the efficacy of PCs The answer is because powermeters work. They do what they claim to do (measure power). Frank has a bad case of Uli/SRM envy. He wishes his product would be as successful as SRM but it will never happen. Never.

27-04.-2008, 01:02 AM

#25

swampy1970

Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2008

Posts: 276

Re: What is the evidence that training with power is superior to . . .

Quote:

Originally Posted by acoggan

Unless he's stupid, Frank doesn't either - it just apparently bothers him when people spend money on a powermeter vs. his product, thus cutting into his bottom line.

I'm not sure what his bottom line is on the upgraded product but since he has SRM equiped product out there, I'm sure that he'd like to sell a boat load of those too.....

27-04.-2008, 03:13 AM

#26

Fday

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Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: California

Posts: 610

Re: What is the evidence that training with power is superior to . . .

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squint

Frank is just wondering why:

-top athletes are always being seen using SRMs and other powermeters
-they often pay retail for them
-often several thousand dollars for SRMs
-SRM doesn't have to pay them to use their product
-marketing of powermeters is viral
-they basically sell themselves
-thousands of people champion their use (users, coaches, pros)

In contrast:

-PCs have to be given away to top pros
-yet seeing any using them is like is Sasquatch sighting
-Marketing PCs is done primarily by one person with only a few PC cultists assisting Frank
-people are generally quite skeptical about the efficacy of PCs

The answer is because powermeters work. They do what they claim to do (measure power).

Frank has a bad case of Uli/SRM envy. He wishes his product would be as successful as SRM but it will never happen. Never.

Not sure where you get your facts from. Anyhow, the question remains, is there any evidence (other than lots of people do it - in the old days lots of racers smoked cigarettes because they thought they helped the lungs so that type of evidence isn't particularly convincing) that using power to assist with training is superior to using other "more traditional" intensity feedback devices.

27-04.-2008, 03:16 AM

#27

Fday

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Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: California

Posts: 610

Re: What is the evidence that training with power is superior to . . .

Quote:

Originally Posted by acoggan

Your argument is a red herring: there is no method of training that requires using a powermeter.

As I am sure you know, the question is not whether one needs a PM for training but whether using a PM is demonstrably better than other available training methods.

27-04.-2008, 04:54 AM	#28
Squint Registered User Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 330	Re: What is the evidence that training with power is superior to . . . More pros use powermeters than Powercranks. More pros are seen using powermeters than Powercranks. More coaches recommend powermeters than Powercranks. More people get faster using powermeters than Powercranks. Training with power works. Powercranks don't. For those who still think Powercranks might work, check out SmartCranks for a non-spamming alternative to Powercranks: http://www.smartcranks.com/main_e.htm

27-04.-2008, 05:13 AM

#29

Felt_Rider

Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2004

Posts: 1,156

Re: What is the evidence that training with power is superior to . . .

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fday

One of them did. :-)

If the more successful of the Merkx did not use a powermeter and he did not use powercranks and his training is referred to as superior by you than is it a reasonable statement to say powercranks are no more necessary than a powermeter?

If we are questioning the use of a PM shouldn't someone else question the use of powercranks?

I feel pretty good then (referring to Merkx, no powermeter, no powercranks, superior training) because I currently use neither in my training, but if my wife didn't mind me splurging a little I would opt for the PM because as the weightlifter that I am I like knowing how much weight I have on the bar. Now that I am in cycling as well I would like to have numbers to look at rather than going by perception.

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27-04.-2008, 06:34 AM

#30

Fday

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Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: California

Posts: 610

Re: What is the evidence that training with power is superior to . . .

Quote:

Originally Posted by Felt_Rider

Whether PC's are useful or not are a completely different question. I personally think they do things for the athlete that cannot be done in any other reasonable way. There are some university studies that support that view but I will admit the subject is not settled in the minds of many.

Anyhow, the question is how much precision is needed in the training feedback to optimize training? In weight lifting does it matter if the 50 lb weight has posted on it 50.032 lbs? If you are experienced, can't you tell pretty much how much weight is on the bar by simply looking at the weights on the bar without knowing what the numbers on the weights are.

So, is there any evidence that knowing the wattage you are training results in a superior result to other ways of evaluating effort? That is the question.

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