Cycling and bicycle racing discussion forums.   View New Forum Topics
Today's Forum Topics

Set as homepage


Go Back   Cycling Forums > Tech Corner > Power Training
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Welcome to CyclingForums.com

You are currently viewing our website as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions. You will have to register before you can post to this thread.

By joining our free online community you will have access to post new topics, communicate privately with other cyclingforums.com members (PM), respond to polls, upload photos and access other special features like product reviews and classifieds.


What is the evidence that training with power is superior to . . .

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 28-06.-2008, 05:20 PM   #421
fergie
Registered User
 
fergie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand
Posts: 403
Default Re: What is the evidence that training with power is superior to . . .

But Frank I listed several good studies that clearly show that Powermeters do exactly what they claim they do. Measure wattage. Do you dispute these studies?

We are starting to see some excellent new studies from cyclists using power meters that help us to quantify the workload of certain events so we can design more specific training programmes.

The most exciting advances in training with a power meter is the training manager which is based on a large base of sound research.

Tad better than studies that show no improvement in the one area you most want, ability to go faster!
__________________
Hamish Ferguson: Cycling Coach
http://hamishferguson.blogspot.com/
fergie is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 29-06.-2008, 01:39 AM   #422
Fday
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: California
Posts: 670
Default Re: What is the evidence that training with power is superior to . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by fergie
But Frank I listed several good studies that clearly show that Powermeters do exactly what they claim they do. Measure wattage. Do you dispute these studies?

We are starting to see some excellent new studies from cyclists using power meters that help us to quantify the workload of certain events so we can design more specific training programmes.

The most exciting advances in training with a power meter is the training manager which is based on a large base of sound research.

Tad better than studies that show no improvement in the one area you most want, ability to go faster!
The question is not whether power meters measure wattage well but whether the use of power meters as a training tool is more effective than using other methods of gauging effort.
Fday is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 29-06.-2008, 03:59 AM   #423
Felt_Rider
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,254
Default Re: What is the evidence that training with power is superior to . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fday
The question is not whether power meters measure wattage well but whether the use of power meters as a training tool is more effective than using other methods of gauging effort.
I'm kind of new to this and not aware of other ways of gauging effort.
Are we talking about something different than power output?

Can't be perception (what I currently use there is no measurement)
Can't be heart rate (we all know many factors impact heart rate)
Can't be speed (too many environmental factors, flats, hills, wind, etc)
Can't be PC's (they are just a piece of equipment and do not gauge effort)

I'm stumped on knowing what else is a reliable method of measuring effort except a power meter, but again I'm a bit new to this.
__________________
My Blog
Felt_Rider is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 29-06.-2008, 06:59 AM   #424
Fday
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: California
Posts: 670
Default Re: What is the evidence that training with power is superior to . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Felt_Rider
I'm kind of new to this and not aware of other ways of gauging effort.
Are we talking about something different than power output?

Can't be perception (what I currently use there is no measurement)
Can't be heart rate (we all know many factors impact heart rate)
Can't be speed (too many environmental factors, flats, hills, wind, etc)
Can't be PC's (they are just a piece of equipment and do not gauge effort)

I'm stumped on knowing what else is a reliable method of measuring effort except a power meter, but again I'm a bit new to this.
It can be all of those things (except the PC's, because the PC's do not gauge or measure anything effort related). How do you think Merckx, Hinault, LeMond, etc. trained before power meters, or HR monitors, or even speedometers were invented? Some current world champions do not train or race with power? How did they get so good if training with power is so superior? "Everyone" (especially here) seems to think training with power is superior. I simply asked the question as to what is the evidence that training with power is superior to other, older methods (whatever they might be), of training?
Fday is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 29-06.-2008, 09:36 AM   #425
fergie
Registered User
 
fergie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand
Posts: 403
Default Re: What is the evidence that training with power is superior to . . .

I said it a few posts ago. The power meter allows us to quantify the effort involved in racing so we can set more specific training programmes.

We can't say that a rider will win the Tour de France at a set heart rate.

We can't say a rider should sit at a set rating of perceived exertion to win the ITT in Beijing.

We can't say (or measure adequately) a rider should sit on a set level of lactate to hold off the bunch in Tour stage.

We can say that a rider needs to sustain 200-300 watts for 21 days. 350-450watts in the TTs and final climbs. Hence a rider can prepare accordingly. Allen Lim has been in Italy with the Garmin team with wireless Powertap head pieces attached to his scooter so he can see what they are doing.

If we say a certain piece of equipment is better than another how do we determine this. We show that at a certain speed they don't need to produce as much power or after using a product they can produce more power.

Merckx did a lot of testing in his days so no doubt if power meters had been available he would use one.

Hinault used a crude system of classifying time verses heart rate data so no doubt would have been keen to use a better instrument of measurement.

LeMond was one of the first users of the SRM power meter.

Any other misconceptions we can clear up for you Frank?

Although no body is claiming that power meters ride the bike for you an interesting observation is that people using them do go better because they can be more specific with their training. Chris Boardman would do efforts at target power output for the Hour record or Bradley Wiggins targeting at certain max min power out put to break Boardman's 4000m WR.

But while the training principles have changed little from the days of Merckx preparing for the Hour record or Hinault trying to win Tour number six (Build a base of good condition then train specifically for the event) the power monitor and associated software allows us to measure the process better.

Same tools we use to determine that PCs are a waste of money as they don't make you more powerful riding the bike. Specificity!
__________________
Hamish Ferguson: Cycling Coach
http://hamishferguson.blogspot.com/
fergie is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 29-06.-2008, 10:01 AM   #426
grahamspringett
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 152
Default Re: What is the evidence that training with power is superior to . . .

In a nutshell, we can never prove anything works. Lance Armstrong used power meters and he won seven Tours, Merckx never used them, he won five. I use a power meter, I will never even enter the Tour or World's, my mate doesn't use a power meter, and he'll never win either.

But wait, Slipstream use PowerTaps, and one of their riders came 4th in Parix-Roubaix. They won the Giro TTT. So is that evidence power meters are better? No, of course not.

The point is, a power meter is just another tool to help you get better. Merckx won using friction gear levers, everybody for the past decade or more uses index gears. Do they make you win?

There can be and will be no evidence. It is just that people prefer to use them as they like the ability to nail just exactly what it is they need to do in order to improve, especially if they have limited time. Times change, technology improves, sprockets get added to rear clusters.

But you don't have to use them. Use an old 10-speed bike with toe clips and straps, friction gears, train hard and effectively and regularly, and you will thrash a weekend warrior with a 2kg 36-speed aero wheel-toting power meter-using rider.

Use or do not use. It's up to you. Just enjoy what you do and don't look down on others who do it different.

We all love riding, right?
grahamspringett is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 29-06.-2008, 10:46 AM   #427
Fday
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: California
Posts: 670
Default Re: What is the evidence that training with power is superior to . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by fergie
I said it a few posts ago. The power meter allows us to quantify the effort involved in racing so we can set more specific training programmes.

We can't say that a rider will win the Tour de France at a set heart rate.
Of course not, just as we can't say someone riding at a set power will win, without knowing their aerodynamics or endurance. It is the combination that counts.

Quote:
We can't say a rider should sit at a set rating of perceived exertion to win the ITT in Beijing.
Of course not, just as we can't say someone riding at a set power will win, without knowing their aerodynamics or endurance. It is the combination that counts.
Quote:
We can't say (or measure adequately) a rider should sit on a set level of lactate to hold off the bunch in Tour stage.
Of course not, just as we can't say someone riding at a set power will win, without knowing their aerodynamics or endurance. It is the combination that counts.
Quote:
We can say that a rider needs to sustain 200-300 watts for 21 days. 350-450watts in the TTs and final climbs. Hence a rider can prepare accordingly. Allen Lim has been in Italy with the Garmin team with wireless Powertap head pieces attached to his scooter so he can see what they are doing.
Any "real" evidence they will be better for it than if they trained like Merckx?
Quote:
If we say a certain piece of equipment is better than another how do we determine this. We show that at a certain speed they don't need to produce as much power or after using a product they can produce more power.
Or, the equipement is more reliable, or they can produce the same power for the same effort (see Luttrell) which allows them to do the same the next day also.
Quote:
Merckx did a lot of testing in his days so no doubt if power meters had been available he would use one.
Would he have been better because of it? That is the question.
Quote:
Hinault used a crude system of classifying time verses heart rate data so no doubt would have been keen to use a better instrument of measurement.
Would he have been better because of it?
Quote:
LeMond was one of the first users of the SRM power meter.
Was he better because of it? Regarding LeMond and the PC's, he said to me: "I spent years trying to learn how to pedal like this, now people can learn how to do it in months." Do you still think pedaling style doesn't matter since you through out LeMond as an example of using power meters. He also endorses PC's.
Quote:
Any other misconceptions we can clear up for you Frank?
I don't think you have cleared up a single misconception. Why don't you go back to the original question, what is the evidence that training with power is superior to other methods of evaluating effort?
Quote:

Although no body is claiming that power meters ride the bike for you an interesting observation is that people using them do go better because they can be more specific with their training. Chris Boardman would do efforts at target power output for the Hour record or Bradley Wiggins targeting at certain max min power out put to break Boardman's 4000m WR.
You mean people like world champion Xterra champion Conrad Stoltz, who doesn't use a power meter, or Ironman World Champion Chrissie Wellington who doesn't use one either? Just because someone uses a particular technique or product or whatever is not particularly good evidence that the technique, product, or whatever is the reason for their success. It is anecdotal evidence but it is not particularly conclusive.
Quote:

But while the training principles have changed little from the days of Merckx preparing for the Hour record or Hinault trying to win Tour number six (Build a base of good condition then train specifically for the event) the power monitor and associated software allows us to measure the process better.
The evidence that you can do it "better", that is all I am asking for. I know that is your opinion. What is the evidence it is actually better?
Quote:

Same tools we use to determine that PCs are a waste of money as they don't make you more powerful riding the bike. Specificity!

Heh? PC's are not specific to bike riding? Where are they used again? I don't think it is possible to "determine" that PC's are a waste of money without actually using them. What, exactly, is your experience with them? Thanks for participating.
Fday is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 29-06.-2008, 10:47 AM   #428
squidwranglr
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 135
Default Re: What is the evidence that training with power is superior to . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fday
How do you think Merckx, Hinault, LeMond, etc. trained before power meters, or HR monitors, or even speedometers were invented?
Frank, I'm sure it's not lost on you that digging up champions from eras of the past have no bearing on this discussion because you simply cannot answer the question of "were they champions because they didn't use power meters (or other measurement tools) or despite that."

fergie pointed out to you that there are lots of studies showing that power meters do what they're designed to do and they do it well (mostly). It's hard to believe that an inventor and engineer such as yourself could in all honesty and without ill will ignore the fact that if the point of a training program is supposed to be prescribing workouts of appropriate type and intensity that take into account, among other things, the athlete's cumulative training load, a measurement system that's the most objective at that would be the best fit. Overall strategies such as periodization, pyramids, etc. were invented well before power meters were available. Power meters simple provide a different, and generally accepted to be more realiable, way of measuring the intensity of the workouts.

Before chronographs were available, I'm sure track events were simply eyeballed at the finish to decide who was first, second and third. Have there been any studies that prove that timing devices are better? Perhaps we should go back to eyeballing.

Berend
squidwranglr is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 29-06.-2008, 10:48 AM   #429
Fday
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: California
Posts: 670
Default Re: What is the evidence that training with power is superior to . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by grahamspringett
In a nutshell, we can never prove anything works. Lance Armstrong used power meters and he won seven Tours, Merckx never used them, he won five. I use a power meter, I will never even enter the Tour or World's, my mate doesn't use a power meter, and he'll never win either.

You can prove things work if one does the appropriate study. Unfortunately, doing such studies are difficult so they are rarely done.
Fday is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 29-06.-2008, 10:52 AM   #430
Fday
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: California
Posts: 670
Default Re: What is the evidence that training with power is superior to . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by squidwranglr
Frank, I'm sure it's not lost on you that digging up champions from eras of the past have no bearing on this discussion because you simply cannot answer the question of "were they champions because they didn't use power meters (or other measurement tools) or despite that."

fergie pointed out to you that there are lots of studies showing that power meters do what they're designed to do and they do it well (mostly). It's hard to believe that an inventor and engineer such as yourself could in all honesty and without ill will ignore the fact that if the point of a training program is supposed to be prescribing workouts of appropriate type and intensity that take into account, among other things, the athlete's cumulative training load, a measurement system that's the most objective at that would be the best fit. Overall strategies such as periodization, pyramids, etc. were invented well before power meters were available. Power meters simple provide a different, and generally accepted to be more realiable, way of measuring the intensity of the workouts.

Before chronographs were available, I'm sure track events were simply eyeballed at the finish to decide who was first, second and third. Have there been any studies that prove that timing devices are better? Perhaps we should go back to eyeballing.

Berend
If training with power were so much suprior to training using other methods why do people keep winning world championships who do not use the method either in training or racing? (see above for examples)

From the point of view of racing, the clock is usually irrelevant (except in the case of stage races). It is who gets to the finish line first who usually wins, despite the clock time. Eyeballing works pretty good in most instances. Clocks do not change the outcome.
Fday is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 29-06.-2008, 10:59 AM   #431
squidwranglr
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 135
Default Re: What is the evidence that training with power is superior to . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fday
or Ironman World Champion Chrissie Wellington who doesn't use one either?
God, this is such a joke... Chrissie Wellington is such an unusual story of an "ordinary" athlete turned world champion (I'm not saying that at all to belittle her accomplishment), that she doesn't use a particular training tool or not is very irrelevant. If she decides to stick to racing Ironmans as a pro (it wouldn't surprise me at all if she didn't in the long term - read a bit about her life story about what sorts of things she likes doing) and accumulates years of structured training, then maybe you could use her to make an example of what she does or doesn't do.

For those of you that are not familiar, Chrissie (who did have some triathlon accomplishments in her past) started training with a bunch of cyclists while she was working for a non-profit in Nepal (because she put on a little bit of weight) and was discovered to be an exceptional endurance athlete and was enticed into the world of triathlon. I quote the Wikipedia article here:

"She is noted for having won this Championship less than a year after turning professional, an achievement which has been described as "a remarkable feat, deemed to be a near impossible task for any athlete racing as a rookie at their first Ironman World Championships.""

All of this said, fairly few Ironman triathletes use power meters. I don't think that's neither here nor there because triathlon, being a multi-discipline sport, is fairly complicated in presenting a particular athlete about which sport (usually one of cycling or running) to focus on (and invest in).

Berend
squidwranglr is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 29-06.-2008, 11:19 AM   #432
Fday
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: California
Posts: 670
Default Re: What is the evidence that training with power is superior to . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by squidwranglr
God, this is such a joke... Chrissie Wellington is such an unusual story of an "ordinary" athlete turned world champion (I'm not saying that at all to belittle her accomplishment), that she doesn't use a particular training tool or not is very irrelevant. If she decides to stick to racing Ironmans as a pro (it wouldn't surprise me at all if she didn't in the long term - read a bit about her life story about what sorts of things she likes doing) and accumulates years of structured training, then maybe you could use her to make an example of what she does or doesn't do.

For those of you that are not familiar, Chrissie (who did have some triathlon accomplishments in her past) started training with a bunch of cyclists while she was working for a non-profit in Nepal (because she put on a little bit of weight) and was discovered to be an exceptional endurance athlete and was enticed into the world of triathlon. I quote the Wikipedia article here:

"She is noted for having won this Championship less than a year after turning professional, an achievement which has been described as "a remarkable feat, deemed to be a near impossible task for any athlete racing as a rookie at their first Ironman World Championships.""

All of this said, fairly few Ironman triathletes use power meters. I don't think that's neither here nor there because triathlon, being a multi-discipline sport, is fairly complicated in presenting a particular athlete about which sport (usually one of cycling or running) to focus on (and invest in).

Berend
Fairly few IM athletes use PM's!!! LOL. You might want to hang out at SlowTwitch for awhile.

You might want to look more carefully at Chrissy and her story, I think her coach is Brett Sutton, and I don't think any of his athletes use PM's. It seems his athletes generally kick butt (everheard of Erika Csomor? another world champ who doesn't use a PM). Would she be better if she used one? Maybe, maybe not.

Why don't you take the example of Conrad Stoltz, who used to train with an SRM, but stopped when he took up with PC's, because he couldn't do both. (We have a video interview with him on our web site where he discusses this http://www.powercranks.com/assets/m...nterviewdsl.mov) He trains mostly to perceived exertion. He is a big guy and tends to ride away from the competition on the bike, even though it is mountainbiking, where there is a climb or two usually. How many years has he been World Champion?
Fday is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 29-06.-2008, 02:47 PM   #433
kmavm
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
Posts: 322
Default Re: What is the evidence that training with power is superior to . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fday
How many years has he been World Champion?
Dr. Day, I'm tired of arguing directly to the question of whether or not your JujuCranks have the potential to improve athletes' performance. I don't think these arguments are getting anywhere. So instead, let me ask you a few things I've gotten curious about from watching you over the years.

Can you imagine evidence that would convince you that you were wrong? Suppose I did a double blind study with N=2000 trained cyclists, half of which exactly follow whatever JujuCrank protocol you prescribe, the other half of which follow exactly whatever JujuCrank-free protocol you specify, and the study shows nothing at all. Would you then believe that the null hypothesis (i.e., that JujuCranks don't do anything but make you a better JujuCranker) would be a reasonable default? If not, what evidence would convince you of such?

If you don't admit to the possibility of such evidence, then you should admit to yourself that your beliefs (which are not falsifiable) are religious in character, and that your group of followers is, in essence, a cult. I hope you would then get into honest work, since continuing to sell very expensive training aids that don't seem to be effective is essentially conning athletes out of their income. Notice that for those of us who see no reason to expect PowerCranks to work, and no evidence that they do work, this is how you come off.

Finally, even if you like running a cult, let me appeal to your enlightened self interest as a cult leader to convince you to give up your current carpet-bombing approach to Internet PR. I'm going to cynically put aside the question of whether your product works or not; after, all even Scientology tries to keep up appearances in public. Join me on a trip to the land of thought experiments to help understand how skeptical potential customers (such as myself) view your product and company...

Let's say that I am the sole proprietor of a company selling ... I got it: a $2000 set of floppy rubber handlebars. Because they're floppy, they train you to engage your core, and failing to engage your core is, it turns out, exercise science be damned, the key to unlocking awesome performance gains, or whatever. I've got some really great athletes (who may or may not have been really great athletes before they got their FloppyBars) lined up to say they use them, too.

Now, for this imaginary exercise, it's not important whether or not FloppyBars work, or even whether I personally believe that they work. It's just important that you intuitively realize that: 1. I'm making some extraordinary claims that have no prima facie reason to be true; 2. I'm asking people for a lot of money that will be wasted if those extraordinary claims are false; and 3. I've got essentially zero convincing evidence for these claims.

Finally, imagine that about 50% of the Internet posts ever seen anywhere about the product are from me, personally. And that I seem strangely unable to let critics of my product slide; I almost never say anything like, "Well, if they're not for you, that's fine, more trophies for my athletes." Instead, I seem almost constitutionally incapable of posting in a tone other than strident defense. It's not good enough to claim that my training aid is valuable; I have to also question the value of all other training aids, etc.

I claim, if I were in such a position, I'd be mismanaging my business to continue posting to the Internet in such a way. I might sell more floppy handlebars, for better or for worse, just by letting word of mouth and the awesome power of core engagement (or the placebo effect) do its thing. Because, by running the risk of triggering so many people's snake oil detectors, I might be convincing them I'm actually a cynical manipulator. If some of the people I tick off are smart or motivated enough, I might even inspire them to construct elaborate parodies of my product, which might cause even some of the less skeptical potential customers to be turned off. Just saying...
kmavm is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 29-06.-2008, 06:00 PM   #434
swampy1970
Registered User
 
swampy1970's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 451
Default Re: What is the evidence that training with power is superior to . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by kmavm
Dr. Day, I'm tired of arguing directly to the question of whether or not your JujuCranks have the potential to improve athletes' performance. I don't think these arguments are getting anywhere. So instead, let me ask you a few things I've gotten curious about from watching you over the years.

Can you imagine evidence that would convince you that you were wrong? Suppose I did a double blind study with N=2000 trained cyclists, half of which exactly follow whatever JujuCrank protocol you prescribe, the other half of which follow exactly whatever JujuCrank-free protocol you specify, and the study shows nothing at all. Would you then believe that the null hypothesis (i.e., that JujuCranks don't do anything but make you a better JujuCranker) would be a reasonable default? If not, what evidence would convince you of such?

If you don't admit to the possibility of such evidence, then you should admit to yourself that your beliefs (which are not falsifiable) are religious in character, and that your group of followers is, in essence, a cult. I hope you would then get into honest work, since continuing to sell very expensive training aids that don't seem to be effective is essentially conning athletes out of their income. Notice that for those of us who see no reason to expect PowerCranks to work, and no evidence that they do work, this is how you come off.

Finally, even if you like running a cult, let me appeal to your enlightened self interest as a cult leader to convince you to give up your current carpet-bombing approach to Internet PR. I'm going to cynically put aside the question of whether your product works or not; after, all even Scientology tries to keep up appearances in public. Join me on a trip to the land of thought experiments to help understand how skeptical potential customers (such as myself) view your product and company...

Let's say that I am the sole proprietor of a company selling ... I got it: a $2000 set of floppy rubber handlebars. Because they're floppy, they train you to engage your core, and failing to engage your core is, it turns out, exercise science be damned, the key to unlocking awesome performance gains, or whatever. I've got some really great athletes (who may or may not have been really great athletes before they got their FloppyBars) lined up to say they use them, too.

Now, for this imaginary exercise, it's not important whether or not FloppyBars work, or even whether I personally believe that they work. It's just important that you intuitively realize that: 1. I'm making some extraordinary claims that have no prima facie reason to be true; 2. I'm asking people for a lot of money that will be wasted if those extraordinary claims are false; and 3. I've got essentially zero convincing evidence for these claims.

Finally, imagine that about 50% of the Internet posts ever seen anywhere about the product are from me, personally. And that I seem strangely unable to let critics of my product slide; I almost never say anything like, "Well, if they're not for you, that's fine, more trophies for my athletes." Instead, I seem almost constitutionally incapable of posting in a tone other than strident defense. It's not good enough to claim that my training aid is valuable; I have to also question the value of all other training aids, etc.

I claim, if I were in such a position, I'd be mismanaging my business to continue posting to the Internet in such a way. I might sell more floppy handlebars, for better or for worse, just by letting word of mouth and the awesome power of core engagement (or the placebo effect) do its thing. Because, by running the risk of triggering so many people's snake oil detectors, I might be convincing them I'm actually a cynical manipulator. If some of the people I tick off are smart or motivated enough, I might even inspire them to construct elaborate parodies of my product, which might cause even some of the less skeptical potential customers to be turned off. Just saying...

There's a way that someone can find out if something works or not. You try them. If it comes with a 90 day trial periods where said goods can be returned and your wallet restacked with cash then there's nothing really to lose.

I took 'the challenge' and I loved 'em. I like them more than my first piece of Campagnolo equipment that I bought in 1986, or my bound edition of Cycling Science in '89, Specialized Trispokes around the same time.... but unlike any of those significant purchases, if I didn't see an improvement I could get my money back - no questions asked.

Sure, I "thought" I was pretty good at pedaling and could do so at 27mph for neigh on 50 miles on an old steel road frame made from 531 and lots of other round non-aero stuff on the bike, but truth be told my pedaling action sucked.

For the first time in 8 months I have a set of lightweight regular cranks on the bike and it feels weird. It's like they pedal themselves - and that's after being off the bike for 8 weeks. I still only feel about 70% but the cold hard numbers show that I'm faster than at any time last year, even with the random heart/pulmonary complaint that I'm suffering from.

The PowerCranks will be back on the bike mid July... of that I am certain, well they will be if I get around to buying a new bottom bracket as the old on grenaded itself due to old age....

What significant change did you make in the "off season" at the end of last year than helped you?
swampy1970 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 30-06.-2008, 03:04 AM   #435
Fday
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: California
Posts: 670
Default Re: What is the evidence that training with power is superior to . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by kmavm
Dr. Day, I'm tired of arguing directly to the question of whether or not your JujuCranks have the potential to improve athletes' performance. I don't think these arguments are getting anywhere. So instead, let me ask you a few things I've gotten curious about from watching you over the years.

Can you imagine evidence that would convince you that you were wrong? Suppose I did a double blind study with N=2000 trained cyclists, half of which exactly follow whatever JujuCrank protocol you prescribe, the other half of which follow exactly whatever JujuCrank-free protocol you specify, and the study shows nothing at all. Would you then believe that the null hypothesis (i.e., that JujuCranks don't do anything but make you a better JujuCranker) would be a reasonable default? If not, what evidence would convince you of such?

If you don't admit to the possibility of such evidence, then you should admit to yourself that your beliefs (which are not falsifiable) are religious in character, and that your group of followers is, in essence, a cult. I hope you would then get into honest work, since continuing to sell very expensive training aids that don't seem to be effective is essentially conning athletes out of their income. Notice that for those of us who see no reason to expect PowerCranks to work, and no evidence that they do work, this is how you come off.

Finally, even if you like running a cult, let me appeal to your enlightened self interest as a cult leader to convince you to give up your current carpet-bombing approach to Internet PR. I'm going to cynically put aside the question of whether your product works or not; after, all even Scientology tries to keep up appearances in public. Join me on a trip to the land of thought experiments to help understand how skeptical potential customers (such as myself) view your product and company...

Let's say that I am the sole proprietor of a company selling ... I got it: a $2000 set of floppy rubber handlebars. Because they're floppy, they train you to engage your core, and failing to engage your core is, it turns out, exercise science be damned, the key to unlocking awesome performance gains, or whatever. I've got some really great athletes (who may or may not have been really great athletes before they got their FloppyBars) lined up to say they use them, too.

Now, for this imaginary exercise, it's not important whether or not FloppyBars work, or even whether I personally believe that they work. It's just important that you intuitively realize that: 1. I'm making some extraordinary claims that have no prima facie reason to be true; 2. I'm asking people for a lot of money that will be wasted if those extraordinary claims are false; and 3. I've got essentially zero convincing evidence for these claims.

Finally, imagine that about 50% of the Internet posts ever seen anywhere about the product are from me, personally. And that I seem strangely unable to let critics of my product slide; I almost never say anything like, "Well, if they're not for you, that's fine, more trophies for my athletes." Instead, I seem almost constitutionally incapable of posting in a tone other than strident defense. It's not good enough to claim that my training aid is valuable; I have to also question the value of all other training aids, etc.

I claim, if I were in such a position, I'd be mismanaging my business to continue posting to the Internet in such a way. I might sell more floppy handlebars, for better or for worse, just by letting word of mouth and the awesome power of core engagement (or the placebo effect) do its thing. Because, by running the risk of triggering so many people's snake oil detectors, I might be convincing them I'm actually a cynical manipulator. If some of the people I tick off are smart or motivated enough, I might even inspire them to construct elaborate parodies of my product, which might cause even some of the less skeptical potential customers to be turned off. Just saying...
Show me the properly designed study that the jujucranks do not work as we say (or, at all) and I will believe it. A study that looks at the progress after 10 uses in 5 weeks is not such a study. It would not take 2000 participants. A study that looks at the progress after 10 uses in 5 weeks is not such a study. If such a study were done and showed the jujucranks worked, would you believe it? BTW, I believe there is such a study in progress, results should be available in another 4-6 months. Stand-by. :-)

So, what is your issue? At cyclingforums.com there is a forum devoted to cycling training and a forum devoted to training with power, as if there is something special and better about the later. Certainly it has plenty of advocates who believe this to be true. I simply asked the question as to what is the evidence that training with power is actually better than the older ways? There appears to be none. Why do you find it necessary to drag jujucranks into the thread? Because I asked the question and you don't like the answers you are seeing?
Fday is offline  
Reply With Quote

Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump