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#421 |
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand
Posts: 403
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But Frank I listed several good studies that clearly show that Powermeters do exactly what they claim they do. Measure wattage. Do you dispute these studies?
We are starting to see some excellent new studies from cyclists using power meters that help us to quantify the workload of certain events so we can design more specific training programmes. The most exciting advances in training with a power meter is the training manager which is based on a large base of sound research. Tad better than studies that show no improvement in the one area you most want, ability to go faster! |
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#422 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: California
Posts: 670
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#423 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,254
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Are we talking about something different than power output? Can't be perception (what I currently use there is no measurement)Can't be heart rate (we all know many factors impact heart rate) Can't be speed (too many environmental factors, flats, hills, wind, etc) Can't be PC's (they are just a piece of equipment and do not gauge effort) I'm stumped on knowing what else is a reliable method of measuring effort except a power meter, but again I'm a bit new to this.
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#424 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: California
Posts: 670
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#425 |
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand
Posts: 403
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I said it a few posts ago. The power meter allows us to quantify the effort involved in racing so we can set more specific training programmes.
We can't say that a rider will win the Tour de France at a set heart rate. We can't say a rider should sit at a set rating of perceived exertion to win the ITT in Beijing. We can't say (or measure adequately) a rider should sit on a set level of lactate to hold off the bunch in Tour stage. We can say that a rider needs to sustain 200-300 watts for 21 days. 350-450watts in the TTs and final climbs. Hence a rider can prepare accordingly. Allen Lim has been in Italy with the Garmin team with wireless Powertap head pieces attached to his scooter so he can see what they are doing. If we say a certain piece of equipment is better than another how do we determine this. We show that at a certain speed they don't need to produce as much power or after using a product they can produce more power. Merckx did a lot of testing in his days so no doubt if power meters had been available he would use one. Hinault used a crude system of classifying time verses heart rate data so no doubt would have been keen to use a better instrument of measurement. LeMond was one of the first users of the SRM power meter. Any other misconceptions we can clear up for you Frank? Although no body is claiming that power meters ride the bike for you an interesting observation is that people using them do go better because they can be more specific with their training. Chris Boardman would do efforts at target power output for the Hour record or Bradley Wiggins targeting at certain max min power out put to break Boardman's 4000m WR. But while the training principles have changed little from the days of Merckx preparing for the Hour record or Hinault trying to win Tour number six (Build a base of good condition then train specifically for the event) the power monitor and associated software allows us to measure the process better. Same tools we use to determine that PCs are a waste of money as they don't make you more powerful riding the bike. Specificity! |
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#426 |
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 152
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In a nutshell, we can never prove anything works. Lance Armstrong used power meters and he won seven Tours, Merckx never used them, he won five. I use a power meter, I will never even enter the Tour or World's, my mate doesn't use a power meter, and he'll never win either.
But wait, Slipstream use PowerTaps, and one of their riders came 4th in Parix-Roubaix. They won the Giro TTT. So is that evidence power meters are better? No, of course not. The point is, a power meter is just another tool to help you get better. Merckx won using friction gear levers, everybody for the past decade or more uses index gears. Do they make you win? There can be and will be no evidence. It is just that people prefer to use them as they like the ability to nail just exactly what it is they need to do in order to improve, especially if they have limited time. Times change, technology improves, sprockets get added to rear clusters. But you don't have to use them. Use an old 10-speed bike with toe clips and straps, friction gears, train hard and effectively and regularly, and you will thrash a weekend warrior with a 2kg 36-speed aero wheel-toting power meter-using rider. Use or do not use. It's up to you. Just enjoy what you do and don't look down on others who do it different. We all love riding, right? |
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#427 | ||||||||||||
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: California
Posts: 670
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Heh? PC's are not specific to bike riding? Where are they used again? I don't think it is possible to "determine" that PC's are a waste of money without actually using them. What, exactly, is your experience with them? Thanks for participating. |
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#428 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 135
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fergie pointed out to you that there are lots of studies showing that power meters do what they're designed to do and they do it well (mostly). It's hard to believe that an inventor and engineer such as yourself could in all honesty and without ill will ignore the fact that if the point of a training program is supposed to be prescribing workouts of appropriate type and intensity that take into account, among other things, the athlete's cumulative training load, a measurement system that's the most objective at that would be the best fit. Overall strategies such as periodization, pyramids, etc. were invented well before power meters were available. Power meters simple provide a different, and generally accepted to be more realiable, way of measuring the intensity of the workouts. Before chronographs were available, I'm sure track events were simply eyeballed at the finish to decide who was first, second and third. Have there been any studies that prove that timing devices are better? Perhaps we should go back to eyeballing. Berend |
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#429 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: California
Posts: 670
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#430 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: California
Posts: 670
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From the point of view of racing, the clock is usually irrelevant (except in the case of stage races). It is who gets to the finish line first who usually wins, despite the clock time. Eyeballing works pretty good in most instances. Clocks do not change the outcome. |
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#431 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 135
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For those of you that are not familiar, Chrissie (who did have some triathlon accomplishments in her past) started training with a bunch of cyclists while she was working for a non-profit in Nepal (because she put on a little bit of weight) and was discovered to be an exceptional endurance athlete and was enticed into the world of triathlon. I quote the Wikipedia article here: "She is noted for having won this Championship less than a year after turning professional, an achievement which has been described as "a remarkable feat, deemed to be a near impossible task for any athlete racing as a rookie at their first Ironman World Championships."" All of this said, fairly few Ironman triathletes use power meters. I don't think that's neither here nor there because triathlon, being a multi-discipline sport, is fairly complicated in presenting a particular athlete about which sport (usually one of cycling or running) to focus on (and invest in). Berend |
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#432 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: California
Posts: 670
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You might want to look more carefully at Chrissy and her story, I think her coach is Brett Sutton, and I don't think any of his athletes use PM's. It seems his athletes generally kick butt (everheard of Erika Csomor? another world champ who doesn't use a PM). Would she be better if she used one? Maybe, maybe not. Why don't you take the example of Conrad Stoltz, who used to train with an SRM, but stopped when he took up with PC's, because he couldn't do both. (We have a video interview with him on our web site where he discusses this http://www.powercranks.com/assets/m...nterviewdsl.mov) He trains mostly to perceived exertion. He is a big guy and tends to ride away from the competition on the bike, even though it is mountainbiking, where there is a climb or two usually. How many years has he been World Champion? |
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#433 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
Posts: 322
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Can you imagine evidence that would convince you that you were wrong? Suppose I did a double blind study with N=2000 trained cyclists, half of which exactly follow whatever JujuCrank protocol you prescribe, the other half of which follow exactly whatever JujuCrank-free protocol you specify, and the study shows nothing at all. Would you then believe that the null hypothesis (i.e., that JujuCranks don't do anything but make you a better JujuCranker) would be a reasonable default? If not, what evidence would convince you of such? If you don't admit to the possibility of such evidence, then you should admit to yourself that your beliefs (which are not falsifiable) are religious in character, and that your group of followers is, in essence, a cult. I hope you would then get into honest work, since continuing to sell very expensive training aids that don't seem to be effective is essentially conning athletes out of their income. Notice that for those of us who see no reason to expect PowerCranks to work, and no evidence that they do work, this is how you come off. Finally, even if you like running a cult, let me appeal to your enlightened self interest as a cult leader to convince you to give up your current carpet-bombing approach to Internet PR. I'm going to cynically put aside the question of whether your product works or not; after, all even Scientology tries to keep up appearances in public. Join me on a trip to the land of thought experiments to help understand how skeptical potential customers (such as myself) view your product and company... Let's say that I am the sole proprietor of a company selling ... I got it: a $2000 set of floppy rubber handlebars. Because they're floppy, they train you to engage your core, and failing to engage your core is, it turns out, exercise science be damned, the key to unlocking awesome performance gains, or whatever. I've got some really great athletes (who may or may not have been really great athletes before they got their FloppyBars) lined up to say they use them, too. Now, for this imaginary exercise, it's not important whether or not FloppyBars work, or even whether I personally believe that they work. It's just important that you intuitively realize that: 1. I'm making some extraordinary claims that have no prima facie reason to be true; 2. I'm asking people for a lot of money that will be wasted if those extraordinary claims are false; and 3. I've got essentially zero convincing evidence for these claims. Finally, imagine that about 50% of the Internet posts ever seen anywhere about the product are from me, personally. And that I seem strangely unable to let critics of my product slide; I almost never say anything like, "Well, if they're not for you, that's fine, more trophies for my athletes." Instead, I seem almost constitutionally incapable of posting in a tone other than strident defense. It's not good enough to claim that my training aid is valuable; I have to also question the value of all other training aids, etc. I claim, if I were in such a position, I'd be mismanaging my business to continue posting to the Internet in such a way. I might sell more floppy handlebars, for better or for worse, just by letting word of mouth and the awesome power of core engagement (or the placebo effect) do its thing. Because, by running the risk of triggering so many people's snake oil detectors, I might be convincing them I'm actually a cynical manipulator. If some of the people I tick off are smart or motivated enough, I might even inspire them to construct elaborate parodies of my product, which might cause even some of the less skeptical potential customers to be turned off. Just saying... |
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#434 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 451
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There's a way that someone can find out if something works or not. You try them. If it comes with a 90 day trial periods where said goods can be returned and your wallet restacked with cash then there's nothing really to lose. I took 'the challenge' and I loved 'em. I like them more than my first piece of Campagnolo equipment that I bought in 1986, or my bound edition of Cycling Science in '89, Specialized Trispokes around the same time.... but unlike any of those significant purchases, if I didn't see an improvement I could get my money back - no questions asked. Sure, I "thought" I was pretty good at pedaling and could do so at 27mph for neigh on 50 miles on an old steel road frame made from 531 and lots of other round non-aero stuff on the bike, but truth be told my pedaling action sucked. For the first time in 8 months I have a set of lightweight regular cranks on the bike and it feels weird. It's like they pedal themselves - and that's after being off the bike for 8 weeks. I still only feel about 70% but the cold hard numbers show that I'm faster than at any time last year, even with the random heart/pulmonary complaint that I'm suffering from. The PowerCranks will be back on the bike mid July... of that I am certain, well they will be if I get around to buying a new bottom bracket as the old on grenaded itself due to old age.... What significant change did you make in the "off season" at the end of last year than helped you? |
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#435 | |
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: California
Posts: 670
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So, what is your issue? At cyclingforums.com there is a forum devoted to cycling training and a forum devoted to training with power, as if there is something special and better about the later. Certainly it has plenty of advocates who believe this to be true. I simply asked the question as to what is the evidence that training with power is actually better than the older ways? There appears to be none. Why do you find it necessary to drag jujucranks into the thread? Because I asked the question and you don't like the answers you are seeing? |
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