Page 2 - My Power Profile is Embarrassing

11-05.-2008, 06:59 AM	#16
velomanct Registered User Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Connecticut Posts: 943	Re: My Power Profile is Embarrassing If you Can jump 12 in, you Can do 20w/kg for 5s. anyone who doesn't believe me, PM me. my keyboard is shot, will reply Mon. __________________ "friendship, family, religion. These are the three demons you must slay if you wish to succeed in business!" -Mr. Burns The faster you go, the fewer passing cars

11-05.-2008, 09:48 AM

#17

john979

Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2005

Posts: 215

Re: My Power Profile is Embarrassing

Quote:

Originally Posted by nmcgann

That's quite good - my 5min and FT is at the top of cat4, my 1min is in the centre of "untrained" and I haven't even got my 5s on the chart at all

So muscular strength has no part in cycling performance?

Neil

Neuromuscular power and muscular strength are two distinctly different concepts.

Keep in mind that an individual's power profile has a strong genetic component and training can only do so much. For example, Chris Boardman is alleged to have never broken 1000 watts.

I have very poor neuromuscular power. While I do not perform much true L7 training, I do a lot of 30-second interval training, yet I never seen any significant increase in my 30 second power.

11-05.-2008, 10:37 AM	#18
Malkmus Registered User Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 494	Re: My Power Profile is Embarrassing I've heard that before about Boardman. I guess that means he can only jump about eight inches. __________________

11-05.-2008, 01:49 PM	#19
velomanct Registered User Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Connecticut Posts: 943	Re: My Power Profile is Embarrassing Why do you roadies even care about 5 sec power? Seriously, it has such LITTLE to do with road racing performance. If you have trouble producing 800watts for 5 sec, and you aren't an 80lb 12 yr old girl, then you sure must have trouble climbing a flight of stairs briskly. I'm talking like this because I believe all of you have the potential to vastly improve your neuromuscular power. Since you are endurance athletes to begin with, your neuromuscular power is going to be garbage. You have SOO much room for improvement. Get out there, and hit the f'n pedals hard like you have never done before. No, don't just push it, I mean tear the f'n bike apart. I don't care if you have 10in arms and 18in thighs, doesn't matter. Sprinting is so mental, there is such a wide range of performance for what I can do, depending on how I feel and a lot of other factors. But if you don't give it 110% and go apesheet on the bike, of course your 5 sec will suck. I see a lot of 'older' guys out there, and just by obversing them on the bike it's no wonder many of you have trouble with sprinting. Endurance cycling teaches you to be SLOW, not eXplosive. Oh yeah, I forgot. Why do we even care about 5 sec power? BTW, I bet Boardman could of gone over 1000w if he had the slightest interest in it, which he didn't. Why would he? __________________ "friendship, family, religion. These are the three demons you must slay if you wish to succeed in business!" -Mr. Burns The faster you go, the fewer passing cars

11-05.-2008, 02:25 PM	#20
velomanct Registered User Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Connecticut Posts: 943	Re: My Power Profile is Embarrassing Power (hp) = [(height of stairs (ft) / Time to climb (s) ) * weight (lb)] / 550 So, take a 12 foot high staircase. If you weigh 150lbs and can complete the staircase in 3 seconds, that = 813 watts. If you take 2 or 3 stairs at a time, this 4ft/sec shouldn't be hard to do for 3 seconds, or 5 seconds. That's just another way to visualize power output. Of course if you already have a powermeter, then there's no need. __________________ "friendship, family, religion. These are the three demons you must slay if you wish to succeed in business!" -Mr. Burns The faster you go, the fewer passing cars

11-05.-2008, 05:19 PM

#21

swampy1970

Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2008

Posts: 405

Re: My Power Profile is Embarrassing

Quote:

Originally Posted by velomanct

Why do you roadies even care about 5 sec power? Seriously, it has such LITTLE to do with road racing performance.

If you have trouble producing 800watts for 5 sec, and you aren't an 80lb 12 yr old girl, then you sure must have trouble climbing a flight of stairs briskly.

I'm talking like this because I believe all of you have the potential to vastly improve your neuromuscular power. Since you are endurance athletes to begin with, your neuromuscular power is going to be garbage. You have SOO much room for improvement.

Get out there, and hit the f'n pedals hard like you have never done before. No, don't just push it, I mean tear the f'n bike apart. I don't care if you have 10in arms and 18in thighs, doesn't matter. Sprinting is so mental, there is such a wide range of performance for what I can do, depending on how I feel and a lot of other factors. But if you don't give it 110% and go apesheet on the bike, of course your 5 sec will suck.
I see a lot of 'older' guys out there, and just by obversing them on the bike it's no wonder many of you have trouble with sprinting. Endurance cycling teaches you to be SLOW, not eXplosive.

Oh yeah, I forgot. Why do we even care about 5 sec power?

BTW, I bet Boardman could of gone over 1000w if he had the slightest interest in it, which he didn't. Why would he?

Having a handy 1000watt kick would have been really good when jumping on wheels at 35+mph and getting on in a few seconds rather than a drawn out 30+ seconds of anerobic death...

12-05.-2008, 02:09 AM

#22

john979

Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2005

Posts: 215

Re: My Power Profile is Embarrassing

Quote:

Originally Posted by velomanct

Actually, I don't mind admitting I can't bound up stairs quickly. This is not my musculature and despite your recommendation, there is little evidence from both my own personal experience and that of others, focused training will substantially change my neuromuscular capability, or lack thereof.

12-05.-2008, 08:51 AM

#23

velomanct

Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: Connecticut

Posts: 943

Re: My Power Profile is Embarrassing

Quote:

Originally Posted by john979

What's your vertical jump?

Mine is pathetic, about 14 inches (highest I got was 17 in when I specifically trained for it). Vertical jump is widely accepted as a gauge for explosive power. On my power profile, my 5 sec figure is way above all my others, yet I am an average road cyclist (a 1hr 40k TT if I'm lucky). I lift weights a bit too, and strength training is definitely not my thing either. I have that eternal 'skinny' look.

POINT IS: you CAN train your body to be explosive on the bike, even if it's not your natural strong suit. Well, maybe it's wrong to assume that based on my experience, who knows.

BTW, if your cardiovascular system ain't up to par, that 20w/kg kick ain't going to appear when you need it in a crit. That's what happens with me, in the final 300 meters, I am too anerobic to put out any kind of an explosive effort, and it has nothing to do with not having the ability. Typical final sprint watts are 60% (SIXTY percent!!) of what I can do when I'm fresh/aerobic.

__________________
"friendship, family, religion. These are the three demons you must slay if you wish to succeed in business!" -Mr. Burns

The faster you go, the fewer passing cars

12-05.-2008, 09:20 AM

#24

john979

Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2005

Posts: 215

Re: My Power Profile is Embarrassing

Quote:

Originally Posted by velomanct

POINT IS: you CAN train your body to be explosive on the bike, even if it's not your natural strong suit. Well, maybe it's wrong to assume that based on my experience, who knows.

I would like to see historical data from someone with a classic right-upward power profile who with a concerted effort meaningfully (>20%) increased their 5 second power, say from 800 watts to over 1000 watts or 12 watts/kg to 15 watts/kg.

Don't say, show.

12-05.-2008, 09:36 AM

#25

velomanct

Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: Connecticut

Posts: 943

Re: My Power Profile is Embarrassing

Quote:

Originally Posted by john979

All I have is my own data. I increased 5 sec power ~50%. But that was from age 17 to 20.

__________________
"friendship, family, religion. These are the three demons you must slay if you wish to succeed in business!" -Mr. Burns

The faster you go, the fewer passing cars

12-05.-2008, 01:48 PM

#26

Steve_B

Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2007

Posts: 490

Re: My Power Profile is Embarrassing

Quote:

Originally Posted by john979

That would be me. Not 20% but ~15% in a month of training 2x/week.

Background on training and implemenation

Attachments: 5-sec profile going back 5 years. Note best was in 2004. Then I cut way back on sprint training for a few years then got interested again in August of 2007. See the second attachment for last year's progression. (That peak in June was a short uphill sprint with a lot of momentum at 33 mph - my best-case condition.) I don't know what would have happened had I kept it up into the autumn. I'm starting sprint training earlier this year so we'll see what happens this year.

Don't doubt yourself.

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Last edited by Steve_B : 12-05.-2008 at 01:59 PM.

12-05.-2008, 02:01 PM

#27

Steve_B

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Join Date: Jan 2007

Posts: 490

Re: My Power Profile is Embarrassing

Quote:

Originally Posted by john979

While I do not perform much true L7 training, I do a lot of 30-second interval training, yet I never seen any significant increase in my 30 second power.

There is some NM component to a 30-sec interval, my suggestion would be 10-15 sec all-out sprints to really do something about NM power.

13-05.-2008, 09:54 AM

#28

john979

Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2005

Posts: 215

Re: My Power Profile is Embarrassing

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve_B

There is some NM component to a 30-sec interval, my suggestion would be 10-15 sec all-out sprints to really do something about NM power.

Thanks, but I have not professed any desire to increase my sprint power. And while I will not argue that doing so won't maximize what you have, I still maintain that those without significant Type II muscle fiber are at a distinct disadvantage regarding neuromuscular power.

From your data, I don't see any improvement. All I see is you matching your 2004 peak again. Dr. Coggan, another self-admitted neuromuscular "wimp," generously supplied 8 years of MMP data and never broke 1000 watts, even when specifically training for such a goal.

13-05.-2008, 09:56 AM

#29

john979

Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2005

Posts: 215

Re: My Power Profile is Embarrassing

Quote:

Originally Posted by velomanct

All I have is my own data. I increased 5 sec power ~50%. But that was from age 17 to 20.

Apples to apples. My pinga increased 50% in those years and hasn't grown a bit since.

13-05.-2008, 10:34 AM	#30
velomanct Registered User Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Connecticut Posts: 943	Re: My Power Profile is Embarrassing I conclude that it is my belief that sprint ability on the bike is not directly correlated with natural neuromuscular ability. This is because sprinting on a bike requires a set pattern of muscle contractions, which lead to the need to train that exact movement. In short, being powerful(or weak) in general doesn't mean you MUST be the same on the bike, in relation to other populations. __________________ "friendship, family, religion. These are the three demons you must slay if you wish to succeed in business!" -Mr. Burns The faster you go, the fewer passing cars

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