My Power Profile is Embarrassing

john979

My conclusion is the exact opposite. Natural neuromuscular ability stems from specific genetic predispositions that can only be moderately trained. You observations regarding yourself are not valid since they come while your body was still developing.

Again, I challenge a fully developed adult with several years training and racing possessing a classic upward right power profile to provide data showing that with a concerted effort, neuromuscular power increased meaningfully.

Take for example myself. From 2004 until today, my peak 5-second power ranges from 760 to 830 watts. I would like to see is someone with a similar long history of low and flat peak 5-second who decided to train neuromuscular and saw a greater than 20% improvement. Even then, such a person would just break 1000 watts and would still be a neuromuscular wuss.

Piotr

I went from 870 W (5 sec) in session #1 to 989 W (5 sec) in session # 8 some 2 months later last year. As with all training I think there's a genetic component in how much one can attain, improve, handle, etc., so I'm not sure that I agree with either side. IOW, YMMV.

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john979

This is why we need to see data. Your improvement is 13.7%. Thanks.

velomanct

I still can't jump more that 14-17 inches. Everyone knows that a typical sprinter or explosive athlete has a vertical jump of double that height, and some of the best guys can jump over 3ft.

Sure, I am only one person, so validity is weak. I'm telling you though, I am NOT a naturally strong/explosive athlete, yet my 5 sec is in the 1800 range (185lbs). My ability on the bike is the DIRECT result of sprinting a LOT, and putting in 110% effort.

I would gladly ride with anyone interested in learning sprint training methods on the bike.


Remember this: Your body is only capable of what your mind allows. Think about it.

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Steve_B

No, but you are all over this thread saying "it can't be done" without presenting any evidence that you have actually tried to improve it the more conventional way.
No argument.
You asked for improvement so I gave it to you. You didn't say it had to be "beyond historical highs". I stated pretty clearly in my previous post that I linked to in this thread that I matched historical highs coming from a relative nadir. It's not like I was misleading you.

john979

To the ability that your genetic physiology enables you to...


To the ability that your genetic physiology enables you to...

You need to do some reseach regarding muscle myosin expression. Not all of us can be good at what we want to be, but we all can be good at what we are.

There is a growing trend away from "train your limiter" to "race your strength."

velomanct

If you are such a slow-twitcher, why even bother thinking about sprinting? You would surely have tons more success in pure endurance events.

And yes, I believe specialization is increasing more so each year. It all depends on what your goals are. If you just want to casually race and be able to race average with the 4s, then working on limiters has its benefits. But if you want to really make a mark somewhere, you need to specialize in what you are naturally best at.

I sprint a lot because I like to. It gives me a thrill. I have neglected endurance work because it's boring to me and too painful for the return that it gives me.

I'm just trying to say that you shouldn't be so close minded. There is always improvement to be made in a weak area, assuming you haven't already throughly trained that ability yet. I like to defy odds, myself. It's fun to prove the 'world' wrong.

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john979

I am not close minded and I never said I wanted to increase my sprint power, all I said is that if I did, it would not be by much. Below is quote from Dr. Coggan:

"Well I don't know about other people's power outputs, but I do know this: since turning 40 I've won 22% of the 60+ mass start races I've done (53% of all road races) w/o ever out-sprinting more than one person. :-)"

Remember, Dr. C has never broken 1000 watts, even when training to do so...

I looking for data from people to prove me wrong. If that is not open-minded, I don't know what is...

velomanct

I can't give you any data on this. I'm not a coach or sport physiologist or anything.

Given the topic of this thread, I assumed you had some interest in improving your sprint.


And just so you know, in road racing, what many times would be considered a "sprint" is actually a sub 1000watt effort, due to conditions, tactics, and fatigue. It IS possible to "outsprint" another rider without ever going above 900watts. This happens all the time.

Road sprinting is a totally different game than the "5 second power emphasized track sprinting" which is in fact, REAL sprinting (match sprints, standing 250m, etc) (well, even many times on the track peak wattages in a 'sprint' will be much much lower than is possible during ideal conditions). So, all of these leads me back to what I said earlier, how 5 second power really doesn't mean jack for a road rider, in most cases.

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Steve_B

I think that when you compare 5-sec efforts, you have to consider the circumstances. Just as a 20-minute effort in the middle of a hard road race may be less than what one could do "fresh", a 5-sec effort will suffer the same way. Comparison among 5-second efforts in similar circumstances is relevant. In addition, that diminished sprint that comes at the end of the race is still partially neuromuscular and the 5-second effort (fresh or not) is one marker of NM power.

So to say that 5-sec efforts "doesn't mean jack" is not correct, IMO.

jsirabella

From what I can tell you are all saying that your 5 sec power output has little bearing on most road races but is important in track...Sounds true enough except on the cases that swampy brought up of when you will need to burn a match it will come in handy.

But aside from that I am kind of tired of in any sport, the "genetics" reason. Always when someone can not reach their goals..."well its genetics"...I am sorry but you have to dig pretty deep before you should take out the genetics get out of jail card free. In my gym there was a guy who wore a shirt that said it all for me "F!%K GENETICS".

Lets talk Anthropology, if my sorry ass genes somehow survived this far to be passed down all the way to me than I am probably not that bad in the whole "natural selection" theory.

All the training is great but training of anything simply comes down to time and dedication...people should not fool themselves to believe they can go to a gym or ride a bike for a few months and suddenly all will change...it takes years, if you know that going in than I think genetics will play a really, really small role.

-js

velomanct

I forgot what the original arguement here is now. So, is it that you are saying that one can't significantly improve 5 sec power if they are naturally weak in that area? Is that the arguement here? Are you saying that some people just simple don't respond to neuromuscular training?

Ride with me for a few months and if you don't significantly improve your 5 sec power while putting in REAL 100% efforts, then I will believe you. I am going to assume you are untrained in this area to begin with, correct? Because that is the whole premise of this arguement, that some people can't significantly improve 5 sec power over their natural state?

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john979

Are you saying that some people just simple don't respond to neuromuscular training? -- Not the way others do.

I am going to assume you are untrained in this area to begin with, correct? -- I am not "untrained" in this area, my neuromuscular power is simply low compared to my aerobic power, which is typical for someone with my power profile.

Ride with me for a few months and if you don't significantly improve your 5 sec power while putting in REAL 100% efforts, then I will believe you. -- First, I could simply provide data. Second, my neuromuscular power is so low you probably would not believe I was putting out a 100% effort.

Do you realize that starting from a full stop requires a neuromuscular power effort? My 30-second intervals are not exactly noodling and include crank torques of nearly 1000 inch-pounds, which while not high for a sprinter indicates a significant neuromuscular power effort. Moreover, while not as hard, my VO2 Max interval starts also provide a neuromuscular power effort.

velomanct

All I'm saying is that I believe I could help train someone who is weak in 5 sec power to possibly realize a level that was not previously thought of to be attainable.

If you want to disagree, that's fine.

There's no point in mentioning torque(hub), because that is very dependent on gear ratios. My best sprint recorded had a torque of only 400in lbs, but that was in a 53x14 gear at 31-38mph. Put it in a granny gear and go from a stop, and your torque will be much much higher, and likely result in a lower wattage.

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"friendship, family, religion. These are the three demons you must slay if you wish to succeed in business!" -Mr. Burns
The faster you go, the fewer passing cars