recommend a pedal for a clipless noob

dustoyevsky@mac.com

On May 10, 12:07*pm, Nate Nagel <njna...@roosters.net> wrote:
>*My understanding is
> that the type of clips, to some extent, determines the choice of shoe.
> Or are there some shoes that are drilled for more than one type of clip?
> * If that is the case, and I can find a pair that fit, that might be
> exactly what I do.

This is where it might be best to go to a store ("bike store" or
other) that has shoes you're interested in, and get the fit right,
before all else. Not the cheapest way but then look in ebay and note
all the "new", "didn't fit" cycling shoes people are trying to get
their money back out of, pending the next try at a good fit.

The ancient lore of "cycle shoes gotta fit tight" is still around.
Beware. Tight shoes are not necessary and are bad for your feet.
That's where the Sidi buckle top strap/velcro toe straps work for me--
I can run the toe area loose, and keep my toes from sliding forward
and hitting the inside ends of the shoes via top strap's buckle
adjustment.

Here's a sample from Sidi:

<http://www.sidiusa.com/tech/cleat_millenium2.html>

Which, FWIW, doesn't show the "SPD bolt on adapter with recess" that I
have on my Spin shoes (Genius IV or V road shoes). It's like a plastic
enclosure that bolts on to the Sidi sole, and carries a sliding,
threaded metal plate that accepts the SPD cleat bolts. Kinda mickey-
mouse but it works, OK for limited walking in Spin class situations.

You can do some wwweb looking and get some idea of models and hardware
with other shoe mfg's.

I'm sure doing some googling of this ng would show some thread titles
where you might get more general info, too.

BTW, the SPD-SL "pontoon" style cleat beats Look (as mentioned) and
Campy cleats, IME, not just for limiting wear, to some extent, while
walking, but also for stability. Much better but still not any kind of
a hiking shoe. --D-y

Art Harris

Nate Nagel wrote:

>
> I haven't seen anything like the shoes you
> recommend above in any of the local stores, but that seems like it would
> meet my needs (walkable, but not a MTB shoe. *I guess the keyword I
> should be using would be "touring?")
>

Yes, I can't understand why Shimano doesn't promote their SPD Touring
shoes more. I use the now discontinued T092's. Recently Nashbar was
selling the similar RT-50's (which seems to have been replaced by the
RT-51). These shoes aren't as clunky as MTB shoes, and are great for
road riding and walking. Good luck.

Art Harris

Nate Nagel

Art Harris wrote:
> Nate Nagel wrote:
>
>
>>I haven't seen anything like the shoes you
>>recommend above in any of the local stores, but that seems like it would
>>meet my needs (walkable, but not a MTB shoe. I guess the keyword I
>>should be using would be "touring?")
>>
>
>
> Yes, I can't understand why Shimano doesn't promote their SPD Touring
> shoes more. I use the now discontinued T092's. Recently Nashbar was
> selling the similar RT-50's (which seems to have been replaced by the
> RT-51). These shoes aren't as clunky as MTB shoes, and are great for
> road riding and walking. Good luck.
>
> Art Harris

hmm. don't seem to be much of anywhere to buy them based on a quick
google - most of the hits are European. There also appears to be a more
expensive RT-80, which I guess is an option as well. Do Shimano shoe
sizes tend to be consistent across different product lines? Looks like
I'd have to be fitted for a MTB or road shoe and then order the touring
shoes online.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

BCDrums

joseph.santaniello@gmail.com wrote:
> On May 10, 7:07 pm, Nate Nagel <njna...@roosters.net> wrote:
>> dustoyev...@mac.com wrote:
>>> On May 10, 9:01 am, Nate Nagel <njna...@roosters.net> wrote:
>>>> I don't think he's trying to make a sale because he's got a bucket full of
>>>> used pedals of both types, and he doesn't sell shoes at all. I was
>>>> hoping to be able to walk in whatever shoes I ended up getting but that
>>>> seems to not be an option for either? Also, what about the new SPD-SL?
>>> Walking? Lots? IOW, shopping for groceries, or just store stops?
>>> With SPD, you can walk in sandals <g>. Google here, Sheldon Brown
>>> liked SPD sandals a lot. I've ridden fast, 30-mile group rides with a
>>> couple of SPD sandal users, no problems even when hammering. From
>>> there, the selection goes on out to other shoes, incl. Sidi
>>> Dominators, which have a very nice strap and buckle arrangement.
>>> Proper fit first, some people don't match up with Sidi but if they fit
>>> they're very good. Not cheap, last a long time.
>>> A bucket full of used pedals sounds like a good opportunity to borrow
>>> a couple of brands at least for a good tryout, which will cost you
>>> only the price of a new set of cleats if some used sets of those
>>> aren't off in another bucket <g>.
>>> Open to correction (please) but I think the SPD cleats you want are
>>> the SH-51's. --D-y
>> yeah, there is that, but I don't have any shoes. My understanding is
>> that the type of clips, to some extent, determines the choice of shoe.
>> Or are there some shoes that are drilled for more than one type of clip?
>> If that is the case, and I can find a pair that fit, that might be
>> exactly what I do.
>>
>> nate
>>
>
> Some shoes accomodate both types of cleats. But usually these shoes do
> not have a recess for the small SPD type cleat. While they have holes
> to mount SPD cleats, the cleat just sticks out and is equally
> unwalkable as a Look or SPD-SL.
>
> Here is a picture of the sole of a Lake road shoe made to accomodate
> all sorts of pedals:
>
> http://www.lakecycling.com/images/P...ole/cx_sole.jpg
>
> Here is a picture of an SPD specific sole in a touring type shoe with
> a recess for the SPD cleat (the rubber thing in the middle needs to be
> removed to mount the SPD cleat):
>
> http://www.lakecycling.com/images/P...e/mx90_sole.jpg
>
> You can walk in those, but not the first type.
>
> For a shoe to be walkable, it needs a recessed cleat. SPD are the only
> type that can be in a recess in the shoe. However they do not need to
> be in a recess to work. Only to walk.
>
> IMO, if you have never tried clipless, there is no point in trying to
> figure out which type will be best. They are all so close once they
> are engaged, you won't miss any tiny advantages one may have over the
> other. The only significant difference is walkability. SPD in a
> recessed shoe can be walked with, everything else cannot.
>
> Joseph

I have no experience with SPD pedals. I use Speedplay Frogs on some old
Specialized shoes and on Shimano SPD sandals, and they recede nicely
into the shoes for walkability.

BC
frogged again

Michael Press

In article <g049qt02849@news2.newsguy.com>,
Nate Nagel <njnagel@roosters.net> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I'm thinking about making the leap to clipless (I've got some fresh rat
> trap scars on the back of my leg, because I don't have either good
> pedals or good shoes at the moment) but am not sure what I should try first.
>
> Most people are telling me to go SPD, but the guy at the LBS closest to
> my house tells me I really want Looks for more float (makes sense.) I
> don't think he's trying to make a sale because he's got a bucket full of
> used pedals of both types, and he doesn't sell shoes at all. I was
> hoping to be able to walk in whatever shoes I ended up getting but that
> seems to not be an option for either? Also, what about the new SPD-SL?
>
> Also, any recommendations on shoes? I've just been wearing some old
> soccer shoes on platforms and I can tell they're not stiff enough, my
> toes feel a little weird after about 10 miles or so.
>
> I'm not looking for "the best" just something that will work well,
> although I don't mind spending money if there's a real value in spending
> more.
>
> Most of my riding will be on roads, FWIW...

The only walkable cleat shoes are SPD type.

Strongest recommendation. When first you set up
the pedals set the retention force to the minimum.
This will make it easier to learn how to clip out,
and offer a bit of a safety margin when you
forget to clip out. When first you ride with them
practice coasting along and removing a foot from
the pedal so you quickly learn to do it without
thinking. As you approach a traffic stop unclip
while still rolling. You are going to love the
new system.

--
Michael Press

Michael Press

In article
<1171e645-bcea-4de3-9fba-19edd278e087@f36g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>,
Art Harris <n2ah@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Nate Nagel wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I'm thinking about making the leap to clipless (I've got some fresh rat
> > trap scars on the back of my leg, because I don't have either good
> > pedals or good shoes at the moment) but am not sure what I should try first.
> >
> > Most people are telling me to go SPD, but the guy at the LBS closest to
> > my house tells me I really want Looks for more float (makes sense.) *
> >
>
> I would recomment dual-sided SPD pedals such as the PD-M520. It has
> enough float

The PD-M520 is good. I run its more expensive sibling PD-M540,
for no particular reason.
Drooling for the XTR PD-M970.

First pedal to earn XTR status

Our lightest MTB SPD pedal ever

Flourine [sic] coated binding claws allow easy entry and release

> I started out with Look pedals in the early '90s when they were the
> only think around, and used them untill a few years ago. If you do any
> amount of walking, an SPD pedal with a recessed cleat is a better
> choice. The Look pedals make you walk like a duck, and the plastic
> cleats wear quickly and tend to slip when you put a foot down.
>
> As for a shoe, I'd recommend the Shimano RT-51 because it has a good
> stiff sole which will eliminate "hot spots" due to cleat pressure on
> your foot.
>
> See:
> http://bike.shimano.com/publish/con...T51.-type-.html

I am shopping around for some RT-51's,
because I have waffle stompers
and want to go with the smooth soles.

--
Michael Press

landotter

On May 10, 6:10 pm, Nate Nagel <njna...@roosters.net> wrote:
> Art Harris wrote:
> > Nate Nagel wrote:
>
> >>I haven't seen anything like the shoes you
> >>recommend above in any of the local stores, but that seems like it would
> >>meet my needs (walkable, but not a MTB shoe. I guess the keyword I
> >>should be using would be "touring?")
>
> > Yes, I can't understand why Shimano doesn't promote their SPD Touring
> > shoes more. I use the now discontinued T092's. Recently Nashbar was
> > selling the similar RT-50's (which seems to have been replaced by the
> > RT-51). These shoes aren't as clunky as MTB shoes, and are great for
> > road riding and walking. Good luck.
>
> > Art Harris
>
> hmm. don't seem to be much of anywhere to buy them based on a quick
> google - most of the hits are European. There also appears to be a more
> expensive RT-80, which I guess is an option as well. Do Shimano shoe
> sizes tend to be consistent across different product lines? Looks like
> I'd have to be fitted for a MTB or road shoe and then order the touring
> shoes online.

The only big diff between the touring shoes and the mtb shoes are some
notches cut out of the nominal soles. Just get something and ride.
More important is that you got enough toe wiggle room. I got narrow
feet and can rock about any shoe as long as the heel cup is decent.
I'm riding cheeeep Exustar mtb shoes I picked up last fall at Nash for
peanuts. Flexier than my old road boards for sure, but walkable. Rode
them sixty miles today without thinking about my feet one second.
Start cheap is my theory, then see if your feet call for support or
help. They might not. If you ride hard and fast, they might scream for
some nicer kit, personally, mine are tough enough to not really care
enough as long as they're restrained and not scrunched up too much.
Yeah, I've ridden much finer kit--but this is cycling, not running, so
as long as it's pretty decent, it's good enough.

Tom Sherman

Nate Nagel wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I'm thinking about making the leap to clipless (I've got some fresh rat
> trap scars on the back of my leg, because I don't have either good
> pedals or good shoes at the moment) but am not sure what I should try
> first.
>
> Most people are telling me to go SPD, but the guy at the LBS closest to
> my house tells me I really want Looks for more float (makes sense.) I
> don't think he's trying to make a sale because he's got a bucket full of
> used pedals of both types, and he doesn't sell shoes at all. I was
> hoping to be able to walk in whatever shoes I ended up getting but that
> seems to not be an option for either? Also, what about the new SPD-SL?
>
> Also, any recommendations on shoes? I've just been wearing some old
> soccer shoes on platforms and I can tell they're not stiff enough, my
> toes feel a little weird after about 10 miles or so.
>
> I'm not looking for "the best" just something that will work well,
> although I don't mind spending money if there's a real value in spending
> more.
>
> Most of my riding will be on roads, FWIW...
>
Unless you are a racer or a conformist roadie (understood not to be the
case for Nate), DO NOT get shoes that can not be walked in. The
advantages of systems such as Look cleats are not important for anyone
but hard core road racers, while the disadvantages of non-walkable shoes
are obvious.

Will you ever want to stop at a store for a drink? Stop by a concession
stand for something to eat? Walk the bike for a short distance in a
pedestrian area? Park your bike and walk a short distance to a scenic
outlook? All activities such as these are made annoyingly difficult with
large protruding cleats.

An ATB shoe with a stiff sole (e.g. SiDi Dominator) will offer almost
all the performance of roadie shoes and cleats, but can still be walked
in without imitating a duck.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org

Michael Press wrote:

>> I'm thinking about making the leap to clipless (I've got some fresh
>> rat trap scars on the back of my leg, because I don't have either
>> good pedals or good shoes at the moment) but am not sure what I
>> should try first.

>> Most people are telling me to go SPD, but the guy at the LBS
>> closest to my house tells me I really want Looks for more float
>> (makes sense.) I don't think he's trying to make a sale because
>> he's got a bucket full of used pedals of both types, and he doesn't
>> sell shoes at all. I was hoping to be able to walk in whatever
>> shoes I ended up getting but that seems to not be an option for
>> either? Also, what about the new SPD-SL?

>> Also, any recommendations on shoes? I've just been wearing some
>> old soccer shoes on platforms and I can tell they're not stiff
>> enough, my toes feel a little weird after about 10 miles or so.

>> I'm not looking for "the best" just something that will work well,
>> although I don't mind spending money if there's a real value in
>> spending more.

>> Most of my riding will be on roads, FWIW...

> The only walkable cleat shoes are SPD type.

> Strongest recommendation. When first you set up the pedals set the
> retention force to the minimum. This will make it easier to learn
> how to clip out, and offer a bit of a safety margin when you forget
> to clip out. When first you ride with them practice coasting along
> and removing a foot from the pedal so you quickly learn to do it
> without thinking. As you approach a traffic stop unclip while still
> rolling. You are going to love the new system.

Shimano has SPD shoes designed for triathletes that have smooth rubber
soles and are so walkable that I wore them to and at work for many
years as well as on long tours where walking indoors on hotel/motel
floors is common. I use the old 737 pedals and am glad that my cleats
give no float with them, being neither pigeon-toed nor duck-footed.

Jobst Brandt

Tom Sherman

jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org aka Jobst Brandt wrote:
>
> Shimano has SPD shoes designed for triathletes that have smooth rubber
> soles and are so walkable that I wore them to and at work for many
> years as well as on long tours where walking indoors on hotel/motel
> floors is common. I use the old 737 pedals and am glad that my cleats
> give no float with them, being neither pigeon-toed nor duck-footed.
>
The Shimano SH-51 "single release" SPD cleat has a specified 4° of
float, which is of course much less than say a Speedplay Frog®. As for
being pigeon-toed or duck-footed, most shoes allow for considerable
variation in the direction the SPD cleat is mounted, and some trial and
error may be required in getting this right with new shoes (when
replacing worn cleats, the indentation left by the serrations on the top
of the cleat makes alignment of the new cleat easy).

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

Nate Nagel

Tom Sherman wrote:
> jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org aka Jobst Brandt wrote:
>
>>
>> Shimano has SPD shoes designed for triathletes that have smooth rubber
>> soles and are so walkable that I wore them to and at work for many
>> years as well as on long tours where walking indoors on hotel/motel
>> floors is common. I use the old 737 pedals and am glad that my cleats
>> give no float with them, being neither pigeon-toed nor duck-footed.
>>
> The Shimano SH-51 "single release" SPD cleat has a specified 4° of
> float, which is of course much less than say a Speedplay Frog®. As for
> being pigeon-toed or duck-footed, most shoes allow for considerable
> variation in the direction the SPD cleat is mounted, and some trial and
> error may be required in getting this right with new shoes (when
> replacing worn cleats, the indentation left by the serrations on the top
> of the cleat makes alignment of the new cleat easy).
>

F/U: based on the comments in this thread and the facts that REI had a
sale on through today and Dubya apparently got around to sending me my
"stimulus" money yesterday, I went down there and bought myself a set of
the second cheapest SPD pedals (the cheapest ones that have replaceable
bearings.) After looking at Shimano's web site and examples of the
various pedals in the store, it doesn't look like there's a whole lot of
difference between the M540s (the ones I bought) and the more expensive
ones other than a very slight weight difference and a big increase in
price - am I about right here? I tried on some shoes and immediately
nixed the idea of using the Shimano "touring" shoes because I found that
the two Shimano shoes that I did try on were both too narrow for my
duck-like toes and had heel cups that were too big. I did get some
cheap Pearl Izumi MTB shoes that fit me perfectly, they were on sale for
$60 so I figured WTF.

Just got back from trying them out - I can already feel that I'm going
to be faster and more efficient, but either I think my legs are set in
their old ways; I spent about 15 minutes on the porch practicing
clipping in and out while balancing against a picnic table, then just
started riding back and forth through the neighborhood, stopping and
unclipping every couple houses. Man I must have been a sight! I've
found that I apparently have been in the habit of leaving my right foot
on the pedals when I come to a stop and leaning the bike slightly to the
left as I step off. Probably because I'm right handed and therefore
it's easier to start/push myself into the saddle with my right foot.
Well based on some comments here and on bikeforums regarding crashes in
traffic I figured it would be a good idea to start practicing it the
other way as well, boy what a CF. I hope nobody saw me! I never did
actually dump it but came darn close a couple times. I'd clip out, put
my leg down, and apparently out of habit I'd push the bike over to my
left - woops! Got a nice claw mark in the shape of a 53 tooth chainring
on the back of my right leg (matches the mark from the rat traps on my
left leg that started this whole line of experimentation.) Now it's
pouring down rain - started after only a couple circuits of the
neighborhood - but I will have to do this a couple more times before
I'll feel comfortable going out on the roads for real...

anyway, thanks to all for the advice and I hope none of you live on my
street otherwise you're probably laughing your butts off right now...
yes, I know everyone went clipless 10 years ago, what can I say...

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

dustoyevsky@mac.com

On May 11, 2:18*pm, Nate Nagel <njna...@roosters.net> wrote:

> Just got back from trying them out - I can already feel that I'm going
> to be faster and more efficient, but either I think my legs are set in
> their old ways; I spent about 15 minutes on the porch practicing
> clipping in and out while balancing against a picnic table, then just
> started riding back and forth through the neighborhood, stopping and
> unclipping every couple houses. *Man I must have been a sight!

I can do a lot better than that-- I got some dirt, apparently, into my
SPD-SL cleat, the right one that I do my in/out and standing with. Got
careless with planning a landing, and dumped it at a busy intersection
when my foot didn't pop out as expected.

Ha ha, I do that once or twice a year, where I'm a little too sure of
myself and don't get the foot unclipped before my "progress to
landing" takes me past the point of no return, where it's too late to
get the foot out and I have to prepare to ditch, gear up <g>. I've had
enough practice at this so I can land pretty softly and kinda roll on
knee and hip with little-no body or bike damage. I've also learned
*not* to make eye contact with observers (and there are always
observers!), much less embarrassment that way!

Actually, I look at it like this: you're a grown-up, out there in
public riding a bicycle and enjoying it. I mean, to a lot of "the
neighbors", you're obviously beyond help in the first place, right?
================
Yup, you have to "pattern" your response so it's automatic, just as
you're doing. Just a little training, your survival instinct will
operate automatically afterwards.

Excuse me as I remind you to keep the cleat screws tight, something
else that gets away from us experts every once in a while.

Got them, like them? Shoes fit/are comfy? Good deal! --D-y

Andrew Price

On Sat, 10 May 2008 17:45:33 -0700, Michael Press <rubrum@pacbell.net>
wrote:

[---]

>As you approach a traffic stop unclip
>while still rolling.

That's the most important bit to grasp - *always* unclip in advance of
anything which might possibly require you to come to a sudden stop -
traffic lights, road junction, granny threatening to suddenly step of
the pavement in front of you etc.

jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org

Nate Nagel wrote:

>>> Shimano has SPD shoes designed for triathletes that have smooth
>>> rubber soles and are so walkable that I wore them to and at work
>>> for many years as well as on long tours where walking indoors on
>>> hotel/motel floors is common. I use the old 737 pedals and am
>>> glad that my cleats give no float with them, being neither
>>> pigeon-toed nor duck-footed.

>> The Shimano SH-51 "single release" SPD cleat has a specified 4° of
>> float, which is of course much less than say a Speedplay Frog®. As
>> for being pigeon-toed or duck-footed, most shoes allow for
>> considerable variation in the direction the SPD cleat is mounted,
>> and some trial and error may be required in getting this right with
>> new shoes (when replacing worn cleats, the indentation left by the
>> serrations on the top of the cleat makes alignment of the new cleat
>> easy).

> F/U: based on the comments in this thread and the facts that REI had
> a sale on through today and Dubya apparently got around to sending
> me my "stimulus" money yesterday, I went down there and bought
> myself a set of the second cheapest SPD pedals (the cheapest ones
> that have replaceable bearings.) After looking at Shimano's web
> site and examples of the various pedals in the store, it doesn't
> look like there's a whole lot of difference between the M540s (the
> ones I bought) and the more expensive ones other than a very slight
> weight difference and a big increase in price - am I about right
> here? I tried on some shoes and immediately nixed the idea of using
> the Shimano "touring" shoes because I found that the two Shimano
> shoes that I did try on were both too narrow for my duck-like toes
> and had heel cups that were too big. I did get some cheap Pearl
> Izumi MTB shoes that fit me perfectly, they were on sale for $60 so
> I figured WTF.

When you say MTB shoes, I visualize shoes with knobby tires that track
dirt into any place you walk after crossing a wet surface, especially
a soft one. they aren't called waffle-stompers for nothing. That's
why I suggested the Shimano smooth rubber soled shoes.

http://tinyurl.com/yxfwd3

> Just got back from trying them out - I can already feel that I'm
> going to be faster and more efficient, but either I think my legs
> are set in their old ways; I spent about 15 minutes on the porch
> practicing clipping in and out while balancing against a picnic
> table, then just started riding back and forth through the
> neighborhood, stopping and unclipping every couple houses. Man I
> must have been a sight! I've found that I apparently have been in
> the habit of leaving my right foot on the pedals when I come to a
> stop and leaning the bike slightly to the left as I step off.
> Probably because I'm right handed and therefore it's easier to
> start/push myself into the saddle with my right foot.

The big difference is that release is by twisting to either side, but
more by default, just pushing the heel of the landing foot toward the
ground on the side chosen. Years ago, when clipless/strapless pedals
first took over, I recall often seeing experienced riders lying on the
ground where they had stopped. That no longer occurs because they
learned to not attempt pulling out rearward, but to twist the foot to
either side to disengage.

> Well based on some comments here and on bike forums regarding
> crashes in traffic I figured it would be a good idea to start
> practicing it the other way as well, boy what a CF. I hope nobody
> saw me! I never did actually dump it but came darn close a couple
> times. I'd clip out, put my leg down, and apparently out of habit
> I'd push the bike over to my left - whoops! Got a nice claw mark in
> the shape of a 53 tooth chainring on the back of my right leg
> (matches the mark from the rat traps on my left leg that started
> this whole line of experimentation.) Now it's pouring down rain -
> started after only a couple circuits of the neighborhood - but I
> will have to do this a couple more times before I'll feel
> comfortable going out on the roads for real...

That's not the problem. When falling or getting hit by another bikie
or car, feet are usually out of the pedals before the rider hits the
ground automatically. That is not something I consider worth
practicing.

> anyway, thanks to all for the advice and I hope none of you live on
> my street otherwise you're probably laughing your butts off right
> now... yes, I know everyone went clipless 10 years ago, what can I
> say...

Don't worry about appearances. People who laugh at you aren't worth
knowing anyway.

Jobst Brandt