Training Qs: intervals, blowing up, fat...

Ryan Cousineau

In article
<0af18a9d-6235-4223-8f2e-65d207d0aec7@r66g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
SLAVE of THE STATE <gwhite@ti.com> wrote:

> On May 13, 9:09*pm, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > In article <r2nk24d49qiedjpaibft00ub3arbo0s...@4ax.com>,

> > > Also, you can't gorge on weekends, because you blow the week in
> > > totals. What's hard is hunger tends to go up and
> > > consistency/motivation comes and goes.
> >
> > I have some idea of the triggers of overconsumption, and a big one is
> > boredom. I just try to keep busy to not eat.
>
> I had thought you could come down to Sonoma Co to do a wine tour. But
> scratch that. It is high time for a meth lab tour of Humbolt Co.

That really is The Shit That Will Kill You.

Think I'll stick to wine,

--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@gmail.com http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."

bjw@mambo.ucolick.org

On May 13, 6:00 am, Bill C <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote:
> On May 13, 6:03 am, "joseph.santanie...@gmail.com"
> <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On May 13, 5:07 am, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > I have two goals right now:
>
> > > -Lose a huge amount of weight
> > > -up the wattage
>
> > > I'm mostly interested in sprint bursts of power, since every race I ever
> > > won, I won from a sprint, and this Fall I'll probably start riding track.
>
> > > Conversely, I really, really like CX, so I wouldn't want to throw my
> > > 30-minute power under a bus, and while I don't care either way about
> > > TTs, I always seem to enjoy them while I'm actually doing them (I
> > > realize that may mean I'm doing it wrong).
>
> > I don't see how losing 25lbs should have to have a negative effect on
> > power. We are talking fat, not muscle.
>
> > As for sprint vs CX, my take is that with -25lbs it's not going to
> > matter. And the general fitness gains from the more rigourous plan
> > will just make you better all around. I think one has to be SUPER
> > strong before specialization comes at the cost of sacrificing some
> > strengths to the favor of others.
>
> > In other words, the strong guys who are faster than you can probably
> > ride away from you in a TT, up a hill, and in a sprint, and CX too
> > (unless they suck at bike handling). Specialization doesn't really
> > matter at this level, fitness does. Same goes for peaking, and all
> > that other rubbish.
>
> > The main thing IMO is in general more riding, with more intensity will
> > make you stronger and thus faster. Losing weight will also make you
> > faster (duh). There are myriad ways to optimize how you do the work
> > you are going to do in training, and how to schedule recovery or
> > whatever you want to call it, but the short version is "ride lots."
>
> Unless you're incredibly careful with the diet, and training you are
> going to lose some muscle, unfortunately. The "cutting up" phase for a
> bodybuilder heading into a competition is really a mixed bag, since
> you really start seeing all the muscles pop out, but you are also
> losing some size you killed yourself to add, but since Ryan isn't
> looking to go to that extreme it's pretty doable with losing minimal
> amounts of muscle, or if he wants to lose slower you can hold, or gain
> muscle, but it's tricky to only lose fat. I'd suggest looking for "pre-
> contest" diet and training routines which adapt really well to
> cycling. I used cycling as the primary, non-impact, tool for keeping
> the metabolism up, and fat burning.

If all you're interested in doing is bike racing, not any
other stuff (lifting, or other exercise that requires a lot
of muscle, or being Nothstein, or physically demanding
jobs), you don't need to worry much about losing the muscle.
Bike racers don't really need that much muscle mass.
Even road sprinters can be pretty small.

Basically I think ride lots, eat reasonable amounts,
lay off the junk calories and eating-while-bored, and
the fat/muscle ratio will take care of itself. I do think
losing 25 lb in what, <6 months? is a little ambitious.
I mean, it's doable, especially if you're out of shape,
but it requires you to devote attention to weight loss
that you could be spending on thinking about riding.
Plus you're cranky from limiting diet and not having
any beer.

In terms of training for specific goals, like CX, then
the type of riding starts to matter and "ride lots" isn't
specific enough. That is, five hour rides will help take
the fat off, but beyond some base level, they won't help
with 30-40 min CX races as much as shorter more
intense efforts would. Assuming limited training time
and volume, as for most of us Masters Fatties.

Although most CX races at the M.F. B level won't be
sprinting contests, it is more subtle than just a 30 min
TT, because in a CX course there tend to be hard parts
and (very brief) recovery opportunities. So the ability
to surge (not exactly the same as sprinting) and recover
is useful. Surging and smooth transitions are what let
you pass people.

Ben
I balanced my lack of surging ability with equally
poor transitions.

Howard Kveck

In article <25d5b580-1201-4a94-8727-93192de39b5e@w5g2000prd.googlegroups.com>,
"bjw@mambo.ucolick.org" <bjw@mambo.ucolick.org> wrote:

> I balanced my lack of surging ability with equally
> poor transitions.

Something similar could be said about one of our vendors at work: "They may not
know what they're doing but at least they're slow."

--
tanx,
Howard

Whatever happened to
Leon Trotsky?
He got an icepick
That made his ears burn.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

Nobody

On Wed, 14 May 2008 00:39:24 -0700 (PDT),
"joseph.santaniello@gmail.com" <joseph.santaniello@gmail.com> wrote:

>I was someplace over 250. I was allergic to looking at the scale at
>that point, so I don't really know. Probably 260 or so. I'm 205 now.
>If I were some kind of pro, I'd be 195.
>
>At our club time trial I averaged 28km/h when I was fat, now I am over
>40km/h.

OK, thanks. That's quite remarkable, depending on your age.

When I retired (I got out early), I started riding and was only
getting about 22km/h, over about 10 miles.

1.5 years later I hit a PB of 29.6 km/h, over a non-hilly 10 mi.
course, out and back. Not racing, just pushing it. (still had to stop
for traffic).

After losing down to 185lbs, I don't really work on speed, but
normally I ride a slightly hilly course at 25.7 km/h.

I had no trouble hitting 40km/h, but could not sustain it. I haven't
tried it lately, but doubt I'd be much faster than that, even with
40-50lbs lighter. Most of the time I see 19 and 20mph on my
speedometer, but due to turning around, navigating and stopping for
traffic, it ends up significantly less.

Maybe it's motivation? Now that I'm at goal, I'm not 'driven' as I
was.

Maybe my progressive resistance in hill climbing has been reduced,
dragging less lbs.

Or maybe it's that I'm 5 years older. Dunno. But overall, I feel I was
faster two years ago.

Good going, though.

joseph.santaniello@gmail.com

On May 15, 7:15*am, Nobody<nob...@nowhere.net> wrote:
> On Wed, 14 May 2008 00:39:24 -0700 (PDT),
>
> "joseph.santanie...@gmail.com" <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >I was someplace over 250. I was allergic to looking at the scale at
> >that point, so I don't really know. Probably 260 or so. I'm 205 now.
> >If I were some kind of pro, I'd be 195.
>
> >At our club time trial I averaged 28km/h when I was fat, now I am over
> >40km/h.
>
> OK, thanks. That's quite remarkable, depending on your age.

I'm 38 now.

> When I retired (I got out early), I started riding and was only
> getting about 22km/h, over about 10 miles.

I was probably in the same range, perhaps slower due to hills. The
28km/h was pedal to the metal for a 10km time trial.

>
> 1.5 years later I hit a PB of 29.6 km/h, over a non-hilly 10 mi.
> course, out and back. Not racing, just pushing it. (still had to stop
> for traffic).

Stopping makes a big difference, and there is also a big difference
between pushing it a bit, and going all out.

> After losing down to 185lbs, I don't really work on speed, but
> normally I ride a slightly hilly course at 25.7 km/h.
>
> I had no trouble hitting 40km/h, but could not sustain it. I haven't
> tried it lately, but doubt I'd be much faster than that, even with
> 40-50lbs lighter. Most of the time I see 19 and 20mph on my
> speedometer, but due to turning around, navigating and stopping for
> traffic, it ends up significantly less.

My rides do not involve stopping, so that helps keep the average up.
Maybe you also ride hillier routes now that you are lighter.

> Maybe it's motivation? Now that I'm at goal, I'm not 'driven' as I
> was.

Or what the goal is. Is the goal to be not fat, or to be fast (and
being not fat is just a way of helping accomplish that?). For me it
was 2 goals. Not being fat for general health reasons and day to day
pleasantness, and to be fast. And if the goal is to just ride around,
have fun, and stay in shape, who cares if you aren't faster?


> Maybe my progressive resistance in hill climbing has been reduced,
> dragging less lbs.
>
> Or maybe it's that I'm 5 years older. Dunno. But overall, I feel I was
> faster two years ago.

If you want ot be faster, you can be faster. Age doesn't matter, as it
is safe to say probably nobody on this NG is anywhere near their full
potential physically.

But maybe you have an iron deficiency or something. No reason to think
so, but you never know.

Joseph

Nobody

On Thu, 15 May 2008 02:24:33 -0700 (PDT),
"joseph.santaniello@gmail.com" <joseph.santaniello@gmail.com> wrote:

>If you want ot be faster, you can be faster. Age doesn't matter, as it
>is safe to say probably nobody on this NG is anywhere near their full
>potential physically.

Question is, how.

>But maybe you have an iron deficiency or something. No reason to think
>so, but you never know.
>
>Joseph

Lots of riding alone. No group rides here.

Hct 45+ so no Iron def.

Thanks for the nice comments. Appreciated.

joseph.santaniello@gmail.com

On May 15, 12:37*pm, Nobody<nob...@nowhere.net> wrote:
> On Thu, 15 May 2008 02:24:33 -0700 (PDT),
>
> "joseph.santanie...@gmail.com" <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >If you want ot be faster, you can be faster. Age doesn't matter, as it
> >is safe to say probably nobody on this NG is anywhere near their full
> >potential physically.
>
> Question is, how.

Ah, the $100,000 question.

>
> >But maybe you have an iron deficiency or something. No reason to think
> >so, but you never know.
>
> >Joseph
>
> Lots of riding alone. No group rides here.

I think some group rides may have been instrumental in my early
improvements. I don't do as many now due to scheduling issues, so
maybe they would help still, dunno.

When I first pulled my bike out of mothballs a few years ago, I rode a
few weeks by myself to get used to the bike again, then committed to
doing 2 club rides per week. One road, one MTB. On these rides,
everyone was stronger than me. The road rides were ostensibly
described as structured training rides. Alternating weeks were spent
on echelon intervals, or hill repeats. The echelon rides were back and
forth on the same road, split up into semi-compatible groups. 8
minutes fast, 5 rest, x4 or 5 (or some such combination, I just did as
I was told) in a rotating echelon of about 8-9 riders. These were well
above my threshold, and often I would hit max HR (moments before
getting dropped), but the quick rotations allowed me ot hang on for a
while. If I got dropped, I would catch up while they were resting. The
hill repeats were up and down the same hill, so always someone to try
(in vain) to stay with.

The MTB rides were on varied terrain, and they ups and downs gave me
quite a workout. The ride leaders would regroup and wait for
stragglers every once in a while, so even if I got dropped, I could be
part of the next bout.

These 2 weekly rides were about 3 hours total, at very high intensity.
I would not have been able to ride at that intensity alone. When I
could, I would go for solo rides during the week at a moderate pace,
and sometimes on a club ride on Sundays that was about 3-4 hours.
Those rides were supposed to be moderate pace, but for me it was quite
hard.

2 seasons of that, and I had lost 30lbs and gotten much stronger. Then
I made a descison to drop most of the group rides as I was wasting too
much time driving there, and I also upped my weekly hours. I still do
some rides with a few buddies who are much faster than me, and that
helps a lot. But this descision wa sonly after I had improved
dramtically from those group rides, and I thought going on my own
would be better at that point.

I think intensity helps bump up the max capacity, and moderate solo
rides helps move your threshold up relative to the total capacity.
That is of course an oversimplification of a huge sort.

>
> Hct 45+ so no Iron def.

That's good.

>
> Thanks for the nice comments. Appreciated.

If you want to get faster, add some fast group rides where you have to
struggle to keep up.

Joseph

Michael Press

In article
<rcousine-8832E1.18342513052008@[74.223.185.199.nw.nuvox.net]>,
Ryan Cousineau <rcousine@gmail.com> wrote:

> In article <rubrum-57B8E3.17375113052008@news.sf.sbcglobal.net>,
> Michael Press <rubrum@pacbell.net> wrote:
> > In article
> > <rcousine-BCAB86.20071312052008@[74.223.185.199.nw.nuvox.net]>,
> > Ryan Cousineau <rcousine@gmail.com> wrote:

[...]

> > A very gradual weight loss program may be in order,
> > concentrating on portion size. I recommend
> > the no-guilt diet.
>
> I have only two weaknesses that hamstring my diet efforts: portion
> control and impulse control. Also, I like beer, wine, and hard liquor.

I deliberately did not say `portion control'.
Control takes too much attention, attention best used otherwise.
The idea is to take a moment and look at the portion you intend to eat.

--
Michael Press

Michael Press

In article <36hn24l3uqjmi04ghc93am5fqlu0cugt2i@4ax.com>,
Nobody<nobody@nowhere.net> wrote:

> On Wed, 14 May 2008 00:39:24 -0700 (PDT),
> "joseph.santaniello@gmail.com" <joseph.santaniello@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >I was someplace over 250. I was allergic to looking at the scale at
> >that point, so I don't really know. Probably 260 or so. I'm 205 now.
> >If I were some kind of pro, I'd be 195.
> >
> >At our club time trial I averaged 28km/h when I was fat, now I am over
> >40km/h.
>
> OK, thanks. That's quite remarkable, depending on your age.
>
> When I retired (I got out early), I started riding and was only
> getting about 22km/h, over about 10 miles.
>
> 1.5 years later I hit a PB of 29.6 km/h, over a non-hilly 10 mi.
> course, out and back. Not racing, just pushing it. (still had to stop
> for traffic).
>
> After losing down to 185lbs, I don't really work on speed, but
> normally I ride a slightly hilly course at 25.7 km/h.
>
> I had no trouble hitting 40km/h, but could not sustain it. I haven't
> tried it lately, but doubt I'd be much faster than that, even with
> 40-50lbs lighter. Most of the time I see 19 and 20mph on my
> speedometer, but due to turning around, navigating and stopping for
> traffic, it ends up significantly less.
>
> Maybe it's motivation? Now that I'm at goal, I'm not 'driven' as I
> was.
>
> Maybe my progressive resistance in hill climbing has been reduced,
> dragging less lbs.
>
> Or maybe it's that I'm 5 years older. Dunno. But overall, I feel I was
> faster two years ago.

Thanks. What is `slightly hilly'?
For me a typical two hour ride has 2 3 km climbs,
and the remainder is all rolling stuff.

--
Michael Press

joseph.santaniello@gmail.com

On May 15, 8:18*pm, Nobody<nob...@nowhere.net> wrote:

> Like to do some fast(er) group rides, but no opportunity.

Because of scheduling issues? It doesn't have to be a huge group. Even
just one or two others is enough as long as they are faster than you.
Through a local or semi-local (as in my case) club there should be
folks to tag along with every once in a while. It works with folks fo
the same level as you too, but not quite as well, IMO.

> Other thing I do is pick a course just over my head, ability-wise,
> then ride that. Generally I do it on a week where I'm able to peak.
>

That is partly why I got rid of my speedometer. I was pacing myself
instead of just riding. Now I don't worry about portioning my effort,
and I think that helps keep the effort level up.


> Thanks again for the detailed reply. Good riding to you.

Thanks, will do!

Joseph

Bill C

On May 15, 10:06*am, Bill C <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote:
> On May 14, 11:40*pm, "b...@mambo.ucolick.org" <b...@mambo.ucolick.org>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Basically I think ride lots, eat reasonable amounts,
> > lay off the junk calories and eating-while-bored, and
> > the fat/muscle ratio will take care of itself. *I do think
> > losing 25 lb in what, <6 months? is a little ambitious.
> > I mean, it's doable, especially if you're out of shape,
> > but it requires you to devote attention to weight loss
> > that you could be spending on thinking about riding.
> > Plus you're cranky from limiting diet and not having
> > any beer.
>
> > Ben
> > I balanced my lack of surging ability with equally
> > poor transitions.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Ben I agree pretty generally. About the only weight training that I'd
> really suggest for active cyclists who are doing a balanced training
> routine would be stuff for the back, especially the lower back, and
> not any real heavy stuff either. > *Bill C- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Meant to include, and abs. I'm totally in favor of "core" training for
anyone.
Bill C

SLAVE of THE STATE

On May 14, 5:55*pm, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@gmail.com> wrote:
> In article
> <0af18a9d-6235-4223-8f2e-65d207d0a...@r66g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
> *SLAVE of THE STATE <gwh...@ti.com> wrote:
>
> > On May 13, 9:09*pm, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > In article <r2nk24d49qiedjpaibft00ub3arbo0s...@4ax.com>,
> > > > Also, you can't gorge on weekends, because you blow the week in
> > > > totals. What's hard is hunger tends to go up and
> > > > consistency/motivation comes and goes.
>
> > > I have some idea of the triggers of overconsumption, and a big one is
> > > boredom. I just try to keep busy to not eat.
>
> > I had thought you could come down to Sonoma Co to do a wine tour. *But
> > scratch that. *It is high time for a meth lab tour of Humbolt Co.
>
> That really is The Shit That Will Kill You.

Death does cause weight loss. It is 50-50 whether that is good or
bad. Values are subjective.

> Think I'll stick to wine,

I thought you wanted to lose weight?

A regimen of crystal meth and lucky strikes will fix you up in a
hurry.

Ryan Cousineau

In article
<48dcef69-a454-4649-8d81-1f04bbad3f1a@c65g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>,
SLAVE of THE STATE <gwhite@ti.com> wrote:

> On May 14, 5:55*pm, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > In article
> > <0af18a9d-6235-4223-8f2e-65d207d0a...@r66g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
> > *SLAVE of THE STATE <gwh...@ti.com> wrote:
> >
> > > On May 13, 9:09*pm, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > In article <r2nk24d49qiedjpaibft00ub3arbo0s...@4ax.com>,
> > > > > Also, you can't gorge on weekends, because you blow the week in
> > > > > totals. What's hard is hunger tends to go up and
> > > > > consistency/motivation comes and goes.
> >
> > > > I have some idea of the triggers of overconsumption, and a big one is
> > > > boredom. I just try to keep busy to not eat.
> >
> > > I had thought you could come down to Sonoma Co to do a wine tour. *But
> > > scratch that. *It is high time for a meth lab tour of Humbolt Co.
> >
> > That really is The Shit That Will Kill You.
>
> Death does cause weight loss. It is 50-50 whether that is good or
> bad. Values are subjective.
>
> > Think I'll stick to wine,
>
> I thought you wanted to lose weight?
>
> A regimen of crystal meth and lucky strikes will fix you up in a
> hurry.

Yeah, well, I guess I just don't want it that badly.

I'll never make the Masters Fattie ProTour at this rate,

--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@gmail.com http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."

Paul G.

On May 15, 5:07 pm, SLAVE of THE STATE <gwh...@ti.com> wrote:
> On May 14, 5:55 pm, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > In article
> > <0af18a9d-6235-4223-8f2e-65d207d0a...@r66g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
> > SLAVE of THE STATE <gwh...@ti.com> wrote:
>
> > > On May 13, 9:09 pm, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > In article <r2nk24d49qiedjpaibft00ub3arbo0s...@4ax.com>,
> > > > > Also, you can't gorge on weekends, because you blow the week in
> > > > > totals. What's hard is hunger tends to go up and
> > > > > consistency/motivation comes and goes.
>
> > > > I have some idea of the triggers of overconsumption, and a big one is
> > > > boredom. I just try to keep busy to not eat.
>
> > > I had thought you could come down to Sonoma Co to do a wine tour. But
> > > scratch that. It is high time for a meth lab tour of Humbolt Co.
>
> > That really is The Shit That Will Kill You.
>
> Death does cause weight loss. It is 50-50 whether that is good or
> bad. Values are subjective.
>
> > Think I'll stick to wine,
>
> I thought you wanted to lose weight?
>
> A regimen of crystal meth and lucky strikes will fix you up in a
> hurry.

I can't vouch for the lucky strikes, but meth has been tried.... he
said, sipping his glass of wine.

http://www.unc.edu/~hymas/images/simpson_collapse.jpg
http://www.unc.edu/~hymas/images/tom_simpson.jpg
-Paul