Greg Lemond

oldbobcat

Prove it.

bryanquinn

Good point.

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If you haven't tried these things, you should. These things are fun, and fun is good.
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Crankyfeet

Prove what?

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Originally posted by Frigo's Luggage...

"[Calling him] 'dickcheese' is the insult of a master. Some people work in oil, some people work in clay. He [thoughtforfood] works in profanity. Open your mind and enjoy its beauty."

kennf

I disagree to the extent that a lot of people perceived him as a bitter has-been in 2001/2002. But I think that perception has changed quite a bit in the last 5 years, as an increasing number of people learned about the rampant epo use in the '90s. All of that is verfiable. Dr. Ferrari was/is a notorious doping doctor who worked with Dr. Conconi and a lot of confirmed doping riders in the '90s. That is verifiable. You have to realize that if you took all of his comments from interviews about doping, statements about Lance would probably make up 5%. But those are the statements that make headlines. If he had talked about Indurain or Riis or Pantani, no one (at least in the U.S.) would lable him as "bitter."

If John Burke called me and told me to shut up about doping or I'd be out of business, then had his cronies draft my own "apology", I'd be pretty frickin bitter.

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"Don't sweat the petty things, and don't pet the sweaty things"

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Crankyfeet

+1. Why would a clean successful cyclist, with so much to lose by association with a notorious cycling dope-doctor, keep that relationship with an exclusivity contract, when he could have obtained those meager lactate monitoring services from a thousand different honest doctors? There's a cavalcade of other circumstantial evidence and witness testimony that makes the conclusion obvious.

In any case... your point is about LeMond sacrificing business for what he deems to be honesty. Need I say more. Or maybe he sacrificed all that business relationship and $$$ cause he's jealous... or stupid?... Yeah right...

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Originally posted by Frigo's Luggage...

"[Calling him] 'dickcheese' is the insult of a master. Some people work in oil, some people work in clay. He [thoughtforfood] works in profanity. Open your mind and enjoy its beauty."

oldbobcat

In the grown-up world there's a difference between making a point and throwing allegations and insinuations and hoping something sticks.

There's a cabal that's trying to implicate Johan Bruyneel, Lance Armstrong, and Trek in EPO. For all I know they might be right, but right now they have no proof. Greg LeMond's antics add nothing to their case.

Crankyfeet, I presume the clean cyclist you're talking about is Armstrong, and frankly, I don't know why he would maintain his relationship with Dr. Ferrari either, but neither do you or LeMond. Yes, the whole thing smells, but LeMond has responsibilities to the sport and his business, his reputation, and the sport, and you and I don't. We don't even give out our real names.

Crankyfeet

But that's your opinion. LeMond has being fighting doping in cycling before Armstrong began winning TdF's as kennf points out. There is plenty of circumstantial evidence that Lance doped. But the reason that he has never been taken to court is the same reason that they only eventually got Al Capone on tax evasion charges. You need a smoking gun as evidence in court.

This "cabal" mindset is something you've read about huh? What evidence do you have that there is a "cabal"? That is the conspiratorial spin that the Armstrong brigade have managed to get into your head without any evidence. "Evidence" being a requirement that you use as an argument to counter other allegatios.

L'Equippe found retroactively 6 EPO positives on Lance's 1999 samples that were blind-tested in a lab (there were 12 anonymous B samples from the 99 TdF, of which the 6 that tested positive were all matched to Lance after the lab tests). In 1999 there was no test for EPO, even though it was illegal. The French newspaper L'Equippe that organized the tests and released the findings is not a French tabloid newspaper, as the Armstrong brigade like to paint them as. And furthermore, they stood to lose millions of dollars in litigation awards if their findings could not be substantiated. All Lance had to do was sue them. He blathered in the media as usual, threatened a few actions, but did nothing AFAIK. It isn't that difficult to convince the Lancophiles in America that it was all some French conspiracy.

There is a lot of vested interests that want to keep the clean Lance myth going. A lot of people are still making money out of his success. The only loser is cycling, truth and integrity... as it is just another example of cycling not owning up to it's problems IMO.I am not trying to get into a slanging match here. Just debating the point. I hear what you say about LeMond's responsibilities. But I think when one has conflicting responsibilities... the truth should be the one to side with, that trumps all others. I'm not even saying that necessarily LeMomd's opinion of the truth is 100% the truth. All I'm saying is that I admire someone who stands up for HIS principles and definition of the truth... despite corporate and monetary pressures.

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Originally posted by Frigo's Luggage...

"[Calling him] 'dickcheese' is the insult of a master. Some people work in oil, some people work in clay. He [thoughtforfood] works in profanity. Open your mind and enjoy its beauty."

Pendejo

Pro cyclists take illegal drugs because they know doing so will help them go faster, longer. We also know that all of Armstrong's main rivals took them. Yet Armstrong still dominated them all for the better part of a decade. So, if he took illegal drugs, he was the greatest cyclist in the world on a level (though illegal) playing field. And if he was clean, then his superiority was almost beyond measure. I would bet against the latter. But even so, his greatness can't be disputed.

Crankyfeet

Different people repond differently to PED's. Please don't ask for proof of how I know this...

Yes. He is probably a great fraud cyclist. Like they all have to be I suppose due to the doped-up mess that the governing bodies semi-condoned.

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Originally posted by Frigo's Luggage...

"[Calling him] 'dickcheese' is the insult of a master. Some people work in oil, some people work in clay. He [thoughtforfood] works in profanity. Open your mind and enjoy its beauty."

kennf

But the issue with Lemond is not really "was Armstrong the greatest doped athlete of 1999-2005." Maybe he was, maybe he wasn't. That's not really the point of the the things Lemond has been talking about, and which are now serving as the basis for the current litigation.

The main point of Lemond's interviews is that cycling underwent a fundamental change in the early 90's, brought on by the advent of epo. The current methods are different (smaller doses of epo now that there's a test, and autologous transfusions), but the "change" remains. That is, if you donlt have a "medical progam" you can't compete. Hopefully, the greater disclosure, and the trend of teams having outside monitoring agencies, will bring the sport back to center. Shouting down the whistleblowers is not the way back to "normalcy." They are not conspiring to bring down Johann Bruyneel or Trek, they just want their sport back away from the hematologists.

__________________
"Don't sweat the petty things, and don't pet the sweaty things"

-- Some dude

ghostpedal

I think Lemond is bitter. Regardless of his motives, he seems jealous of the attention Armstrong has gotten. Lemond was (is) famous for his racing, but nothing like Lance. It's true he helped pave the way for those after him, but most everything he says now seems like a grumpy old man who wants attention. Next he'll be saying he walked to school 10 miles uphill both ways in the snow with no shoes. I like him, but I think the manner he is using is tarnishing his legacy.

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Help! Help! I'm being repressed!

Crankyfeet

Here's an hour long conference presentation LeMond gave back in February on ethics, doping and the future of cycling if anyone is interested. There are chapter headings below if one wants to skip straight to a topic. It's not about Armstrong. But one gets a glimpse at what he's about in a little deeper fashion than the usual media soundbites and spin.


http://fora.tv/2008/02/17/Ethics_Do...ture_of_Cycling

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Originally posted by Frigo's Luggage...

"[Calling him] 'dickcheese' is the insult of a master. Some people work in oil, some people work in clay. He [thoughtforfood] works in profanity. Open your mind and enjoy its beauty."

oldbobcat

Very nice.

bryanquinn

Indeed.

__________________
If you haven't tried these things, you should. These things are fun, and fun is good.
-Dr.Suess