Re: Red lights jumping - interesting survey

Doug

On 17 May, 09:28, Tony Dragon <tony.dra...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> Doug wrote:
> > On 15 May, 21:32, "Brimstone" <brimstone520-n...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> >> Daniel Barlow wrote:
> >>> "Brimstone" <brimstone520-n...@yahoo.co.uk> writes:
> >>>> How can it be a victimless crime when a cyclist jumps a red light,
> >>>> obstructs the path of another vehicle and causes a collision?
> >>> Interesting, that wasn't mentioned in the report I read. How many
> >>> times did that happen in the aforementioned three hours at Piccadilly
> >>> Circus, then?
> >> Was there any mention of the consequences of those vehicles passing the red
> >> light, or was the report limited to the fact of them doing it?
>
> > Well we know that the impact force from a car is very much greater
> > than that from a bicycle even when they are going at the same speed.
> > Let's say the bike and rider weigh 100kg and the car is only 1,000kg.
> > You can see the implication can't you? Cyclists 43 cars 270.
>
> > --
> > RoadPeace
> >http://www.roadpeace.org/
> > For road crash victims.
>
> Could you answer this question for me to iron out any misconceptions?
> Do you think it is OK for cyclists to break the law by going through red
> lights?
>
Depends what you mean by OK. If it is done to ensure their own safety
without prejudicing the safety of others then maybe.

Do you think it is OK for motorists to break the law by going through
red lights?

--
World Carfree Network
http://www.worldcarfree.net/
Help for your car-addicted friends in the U.K.

Tony Dragon

Doug wrote:
> On 17 May, 09:28, Tony Dragon <tony.dra...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> Doug wrote:
>>> On 15 May, 21:32, "Brimstone" <brimstone520-n...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> Daniel Barlow wrote:
>>>>> "Brimstone" <brimstone520-n...@yahoo.co.uk> writes:
>>>>>> How can it be a victimless crime when a cyclist jumps a red light,
>>>>>> obstructs the path of another vehicle and causes a collision?
>>>>> Interesting, that wasn't mentioned in the report I read. How many
>>>>> times did that happen in the aforementioned three hours at Piccadilly
>>>>> Circus, then?
>>>> Was there any mention of the consequences of those vehicles passing the red
>>>> light, or was the report limited to the fact of them doing it?
>>> Well we know that the impact force from a car is very much greater
>>> than that from a bicycle even when they are going at the same speed.
>>> Let's say the bike and rider weigh 100kg and the car is only 1,000kg.
>>> You can see the implication can't you? Cyclists 43 cars 270.
>>> --
>>> RoadPeace
>>> http://www.roadpeace.org/
>>> For road crash victims.
>> Could you answer this question for me to iron out any misconceptions?
>> Do you think it is OK for cyclists to break the law by going through red
>> lights?
>>
> Depends what you mean by OK. If it is done to ensure their own safety
> without prejudicing the safety of others then maybe.

Thank you for your 'clear' reply.
You agree with cyclists breaking the law
>
> Do you think it is OK for motorists to break the law by going through
> red lights?

Motorist should not break the law by going through red light, except
when they are allowed to under the highway code e.g. instructed by a
police officer, where the lights are not working.
One exception that I don't think is mentioned in the HC would be to
carefully get out of the way of an emergency vehicle.
>
> --
> World Carfree Network
> http://www.worldcarfree.net/
> Help for your car-addicted friends in the U.K.
>


--
Tony the Dragon

Squashme

On 17 May, 09:05, Conor <conor_tur...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> In article <f8af5b4a-9bed-4848-b508-2b4ef015d206
> @w7g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>,Squashmesays...
>
> > On 16 May, 14:36, Conor <conor_tur...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > In article <92895881-8d44-49cb-895f-e4e59ff0d216
> > > @b64g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>,Squashmesays...
>
> > > > So just a modified gut feeling then. I'm sure that you are right that,
> > > > in this, cyclists are worse proportionately than motorists. More
> > > > cyclists infringe this rule, than motorists do, probably because they
> > > > can more easily get away with it. But, surely, it is almost always a
> > > > victimless crime. rather like speeding, I guess.
>
> > > Ask the cyclist who got twatted by a car the other month and died, a
> > > subject of another Doug rant, when he jumped a red light.
>
> > As I said, ALMOST always a victimless crime, rather like speeding, I
> > guess. That accident took a cyclist jumping a red light, combined with
> > a motorist who was speeding and playing with her mobile, and probably
> > strumming a banjo, doing her nails and eating a sandwich too.
>
> She wasn't speeding..
>

She thinks that she was:-

"Coultas admitted that her BMW was doing 45mph in a 30mph zone when
she drove across a junction in Southampton shortly after 7am on 7
February last year."

http://news.scotsman.com/mobilephon...-who.3833105.jp

That may not be speeding in your world. You could have argued that she
was not playing a banjo, doing her nails, or eating a sandwich, and I
should have been forced to agree.

Simon D

Conor formulated the question :
> In article <f8af5b4a-9bed-4848-b508-2b4ef015d206
> @w7g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>, Squashme says...
>> On 16 May, 14:36, Conor <conor_tur...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> In article <92895881-8d44-49cb-895f-e4e59ff0d216
>>> @b64g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>,Squashmesays...
>>>
>>>> So just a modified gut feeling then. I'm sure that you are right that,
>>>> in this, cyclists are worse proportionately than motorists. More
>>>> cyclists infringe this rule, than motorists do, probably because they
>>>> can more easily get away with it. But, surely, it is almost always a
>>>> victimless crime. rather like speeding, I guess.
>>>
>>> Ask the cyclist who got twatted by a car the other month and died, a
>>> subject of another Doug rant, when he jumped a red light.
>>>
>>
>> As I said, ALMOST always a victimless crime, rather like speeding, I
>> guess. That accident took a cyclist jumping a red light, combined with
>> a motorist who was speeding and playing with her mobile, and probably
>> strumming a banjo, doing her nails and eating a sandwich too.
>>
> She wasn't speeding..

"Coultas admitted that her BMW was doing 45mph in a 30mph zone when she
drove across a junction in Southampton shortly after 7am on 7 February
last year."

http://news.scotsman.com/uk/Five-ye...-who.3833105.jp

--
Simon

Squashme

On 17 May, 19:29, Simon D <simon...@msn.invalid> wrote:
> Conor formulated the question :
>
>
>
> > In article <f8af5b4a-9bed-4848-b508-2b4ef015d206
> > @w7g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>, Squashme says...
> >> On 16 May, 14:36, Conor <conor_tur...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>> In article <92895881-8d44-49cb-895f-e4e59ff0d216
> >>> @b64g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>,Squashmesays...
>
> >>>> So just a modified gut feeling then. I'm sure that you are right that,
> >>>> in this, cyclists are worse proportionately than motorists. More
> >>>> cyclists infringe this rule, than motorists do, probably because they
> >>>> can more easily get away with it. But, surely, it is almost always a
> >>>> victimless crime. rather like speeding, I guess.
>
> >>> Ask the cyclist who got twatted by a car the other month and died, a
> >>> subject of another Doug rant, when he jumped a red light.
>
> >> As I said, ALMOST always a victimless crime, rather like speeding, I
> >> guess. That accident took a cyclist jumping a red light, combined with
> >> a motorist who was speeding and playing with her mobile, and probably
> >> strumming a banjo, doing her nails and eating a sandwich too.
>
> > She wasn't speeding..
>
> "Coultas admitted that her BMW was doing 45mph in a 30mph zone when she
> drove across a junction in Southampton shortly after 7am on 7 February
> last year."
>
> http://news.scotsman.com/uk/Five-ye...-who.3833105.jp
>
> --
> Simon

Snap!!!

Bloody hell, there's an echo in here.

I blame Google. oogle.. ogle.... gle.

Squashme

On 17 May, 09:44, Tony Dragon <tony.dra...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> Doug wrote:
> > On 17 May, 09:28, Tony Dragon <tony.dra...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> >> Doug wrote:
> >>> On 15 May, 21:32, "Brimstone" <brimstone520-n...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> >>>> Daniel Barlow wrote:
> >>>>> "Brimstone" <brimstone520-n...@yahoo.co.uk> writes:
> >>>>>> How can it be a victimless crime when a cyclist jumps a red light,
> >>>>>> obstructs the path of another vehicle and causes a collision?
> >>>>> Interesting, that wasn't mentioned in the report I read. How many
> >>>>> times did that happen in the aforementioned three hours at Piccadilly
> >>>>> Circus, then?
> >>>> Was there any mention of the consequences of those vehicles passing the red
> >>>> light, or was the report limited to the fact of them doing it?
> >>> Well we know that the impact force from a car is very much greater
> >>> than that from a bicycle even when they are going at the same speed.
> >>> Let's say the bike and rider weigh 100kg and the car is only 1,000kg.
> >>> You can see the implication can't you? Cyclists 43 cars 270.
> >>> --
> >>> RoadPeace
> >>>http://www.roadpeace.org/
> >>> For road crash victims.
> >> Could you answer this question for me to iron out any misconceptions?
> >> Do you think it is OK for cyclists to break the law by going through red
> >> lights?
>
> > Depends what you mean by OK. If it is done to ensure their own safety
> > without prejudicing the safety of others then maybe.
>
> Thank you for your 'clear' reply.
> You agree with cyclists breaking the law
>
>
>
> > Do you think it is OK for motorists to break the law by going through
> > red lights?
>
> Motorist should not break the law by going through red light, except
> when they are allowed to under the highway code e.g. instructed by a
> police officer, where the lights are not working.
> One exception that I don't think is mentioned in the HC would be to
> carefully get out of the way of an emergency vehicle.
>
>

In the right or in the wrong, cyclists die. But speed doesn't kill, of
course.

"A young woman who drove her Smart car through a red light at speed,
hitting and killing a cyclist, has been jailed for 21 months.

Sobbing Kerry Smith, 24, who had no previous convictions and a clean
driving licence, drove west along Talgarth Road at 45mph in the 30mph
limit and failed to stop at the red light on the junction with Gliddon
Road, prosecutor Charles Burton told Isleworth Crown Court.

"It was 9pm and the defendant failed to notice the lights were red and
collided with cyclist Charlotte Morse, who was riding her bicycle from
north to south across the junction with the lights at green in her
favour," he said."

http://www.richmondandtwickenhamtim...ung_cyclist.php

JNugent

Simon D wrote:
> Conor formulated the question :
>> In article <f8af5b4a-9bed-4848-b508-2b4ef015d206
>> @w7g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>, Squashme says...
>>> On 16 May, 14:36, Conor <conor_tur...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>> In article <92895881-8d44-49cb-895f-e4e59ff0d216
>>>> @b64g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>,Squashmesays...
>>>>
>>>>> So just a modified gut feeling then. I'm sure that you are right that,
>>>>> in this, cyclists are worse proportionately than motorists. More
>>>>> cyclists infringe this rule, than motorists do, probably because they
>>>>> can more easily get away with it. But, surely, it is almost always a
>>>>> victimless crime. rather like speeding, I guess.
>>>>
>>>> Ask the cyclist who got twatted by a car the other month and died, a
>>>> subject of another Doug rant, when he jumped a red light.
>>>>
>>>
>>> As I said, ALMOST always a victimless crime, rather like speeding, I
>>> guess. That accident took a cyclist jumping a red light, combined with
>>> a motorist who was speeding and playing with her mobile, and probably
>>> strumming a banjo, doing her nails and eating a sandwich too.
>>>
>> She wasn't speeding..
>
> "Coultas admitted that her BMW was doing 45mph in a 30mph zone when she
> drove across a junction in Southampton shortly after 7am on 7 February
> last year."
>
> http://news.scotsman.com/uk/Five-ye...-who.3833105.jp

It is absolutely weird that she can be so specific about her speed -
almost as though she was watching the speedo intently - when she also
admitted being careless in so many other aspects of her driving.

There are only two possibilities, aren't there?

Either:

(a) she had/has/always will have no real clue about her speed (any more
than she had about the red-light-jumping cyclist whose route approached
hers at an oblique angle) and is merely going along with someone else's
guess as to whas her speed might/"must" have been, or

(b) she was watching the speedo so intently that she didn't notice
anything else, but can confidently assert that she was doing 45.

One of those has to be true and the other has to be untrue. And I know
which one I think is which.

Tony Dragon

Squashme wrote:
> On 17 May, 09:44, Tony Dragon <tony.dra...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> Doug wrote:
>>> On 17 May, 09:28, Tony Dragon <tony.dra...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>> Doug wrote:
>>>>> On 15 May, 21:32, "Brimstone" <brimstone520-n...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> Daniel Barlow wrote:
>>>>>>> "Brimstone" <brimstone520-n...@yahoo.co.uk> writes:
>>>>>>>> How can it be a victimless crime when a cyclist jumps a red light,
>>>>>>>> obstructs the path of another vehicle and causes a collision?
>>>>>>> Interesting, that wasn't mentioned in the report I read. How many
>>>>>>> times did that happen in the aforementioned three hours at Piccadilly
>>>>>>> Circus, then?
>>>>>> Was there any mention of the consequences of those vehicles passing the red
>>>>>> light, or was the report limited to the fact of them doing it?
>>>>> Well we know that the impact force from a car is very much greater
>>>>> than that from a bicycle even when they are going at the same speed.
>>>>> Let's say the bike and rider weigh 100kg and the car is only 1,000kg.
>>>>> You can see the implication can't you? Cyclists 43 cars 270.
>>>>> --
>>>>> RoadPeace
>>>>> http://www.roadpeace.org/
>>>>> For road crash victims.
>>>> Could you answer this question for me to iron out any misconceptions?
>>>> Do you think it is OK for cyclists to break the law by going through red
>>>> lights?
>>> Depends what you mean by OK. If it is done to ensure their own safety
>>> without prejudicing the safety of others then maybe.
>> Thank you for your 'clear' reply.
>> You agree with cyclists breaking the law
>>
>>
>>
>>> Do you think it is OK for motorists to break the law by going through
>>> red lights?
>> Motorist should not break the law by going through red light, except
>> when they are allowed to under the highway code e.g. instructed by a
>> police officer, where the lights are not working.
>> One exception that I don't think is mentioned in the HC would be to
>> carefully get out of the way of an emergency vehicle.
>>
>>
>
> In the right or in the wrong, cyclists die. But speed doesn't kill, of
> course.
>
> "A young woman who drove her Smart car through a red light at speed,
> hitting and killing a cyclist, has been jailed for 21 months.
>
> Sobbing Kerry Smith, 24, who had no previous convictions and a clean
> driving licence, drove west along Talgarth Road at 45mph in the 30mph
> limit and failed to stop at the red light on the junction with Gliddon
> Road, prosecutor Charles Burton told Isleworth Crown Court.
>
> "It was 9pm and the defendant failed to notice the lights were red and
> collided with cyclist Charlotte Morse, who was riding her bicycle from
> north to south across the junction with the lights at green in her
> favour," he said."
>
> http://www.richmondandtwickenhamtim...ung_cyclist.php

Do you agree with cyclists breaking the law.

--
Tony the Dragon

JNugent

Squashme wrote:
> On 17 May, 09:44, Tony Dragon <tony.dra...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> Doug wrote:
>>> On 17 May, 09:28, Tony Dragon <tony.dra...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>> Doug wrote:
>>>>> On 15 May, 21:32, "Brimstone" <brimstone520-n...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> Daniel Barlow wrote:
>>>>>>> "Brimstone" <brimstone520-n...@yahoo.co.uk> writes:
>>>>>>>> How can it be a victimless crime when a cyclist jumps a red light,
>>>>>>>> obstructs the path of another vehicle and causes a collision?
>>>>>>> Interesting, that wasn't mentioned in the report I read. How many
>>>>>>> times did that happen in the aforementioned three hours at Piccadilly
>>>>>>> Circus, then?
>>>>>> Was there any mention of the consequences of those vehicles passing the red
>>>>>> light, or was the report limited to the fact of them doing it?
>>>>> Well we know that the impact force from a car is very much greater
>>>>> than that from a bicycle even when they are going at the same speed.
>>>>> Let's say the bike and rider weigh 100kg and the car is only 1,000kg.
>>>>> You can see the implication can't you? Cyclists 43 cars 270.
>>>>> --
>>>>> RoadPeace
>>>>> http://www.roadpeace.org/
>>>>> For road crash victims.
>>>> Could you answer this question for me to iron out any misconceptions?
>>>> Do you think it is OK for cyclists to break the law by going through red
>>>> lights?
>>> Depends what you mean by OK. If it is done to ensure their own safety
>>> without prejudicing the safety of others then maybe.
>> Thank you for your 'clear' reply.
>> You agree with cyclists breaking the law
>>
>>
>>
>>> Do you think it is OK for motorists to break the law by going through
>>> red lights?
>> Motorist should not break the law by going through red light, except
>> when they are allowed to under the highway code e.g. instructed by a
>> police officer, where the lights are not working.
>> One exception that I don't think is mentioned in the HC would be to
>> carefully get out of the way of an emergency vehicle.

> In the right or in the wrong, cyclists die. But speed doesn't kill, of
> course.

> "A young woman who drove her Smart car through a red light at speed,
> hitting and killing a cyclist, has been jailed for 21 months.

> Sobbing Kerry Smith, 24, who had no previous convictions and a clean
> driving licence, drove west along Talgarth Road at 45mph in the 30mph
> limit and failed to stop at the red light on the junction with Gliddon
> Road, prosecutor Charles Burton told Isleworth Crown Court.

> "It was 9pm and the defendant failed to notice the lights were red and
> collided with cyclist Charlotte Morse, who was riding her bicycle from
> north to south across the junction with the lights at green in her
> favour," he said."

> http://www.richmondandtwickenhamtim...ung_cyclist.php

Is anyone defending the driver's actions?

JNugent

Tony Dragon wrote:
> Squashme wrote:
>> On 17 May, 09:44, Tony Dragon <tony.dra...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>> Doug wrote:
>>>> On 17 May, 09:28, Tony Dragon <tony.dra...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>> Doug wrote:
>>>>>> On 15 May, 21:32, "Brimstone" <brimstone520-n...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> Daniel Barlow wrote:
>>>>>>>> "Brimstone" <brimstone520-n...@yahoo.co.uk> writes:
>>>>>>>>> How can it be a victimless crime when a cyclist jumps a red light,
>>>>>>>>> obstructs the path of another vehicle and causes a collision?
>>>>>>>> Interesting, that wasn't mentioned in the report I read. How many
>>>>>>>> times did that happen in the aforementioned three hours at
>>>>>>>> Piccadilly
>>>>>>>> Circus, then?
>>>>>>> Was there any mention of the consequences of those vehicles
>>>>>>> passing the red
>>>>>>> light, or was the report limited to the fact of them doing it?
>>>>>> Well we know that the impact force from a car is very much greater
>>>>>> than that from a bicycle even when they are going at the same speed.
>>>>>> Let's say the bike and rider weigh 100kg and the car is only 1,000kg.
>>>>>> You can see the implication can't you? Cyclists 43 cars 270.
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> RoadPeace
>>>>>> http://www.roadpeace.org/
>>>>>> For road crash victims.
>>>>> Could you answer this question for me to iron out any misconceptions?
>>>>> Do you think it is OK for cyclists to break the law by going
>>>>> through red
>>>>> lights?
>>>> Depends what you mean by OK. If it is done to ensure their own safety
>>>> without prejudicing the safety of others then maybe.
>>> Thank you for your 'clear' reply.
>>> You agree with cyclists breaking the law
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Do you think it is OK for motorists to break the law by going through
>>>> red lights?
>>> Motorist should not break the law by going through red light, except
>>> when they are allowed to under the highway code e.g. instructed by a
>>> police officer, where the lights are not working.
>>> One exception that I don't think is mentioned in the HC would be to
>>> carefully get out of the way of an emergency vehicle.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> In the right or in the wrong, cyclists die. But speed doesn't kill, of
>> course.
>>
>> "A young woman who drove her Smart car through a red light at speed,
>> hitting and killing a cyclist, has been jailed for 21 months.
>>
>> Sobbing Kerry Smith, 24, who had no previous convictions and a clean
>> driving licence, drove west along Talgarth Road at 45mph in the 30mph
>> limit and failed to stop at the red light on the junction with Gliddon
>> Road, prosecutor Charles Burton told Isleworth Crown Court.
>>
>> "It was 9pm and the defendant failed to notice the lights were red and
>> collided with cyclist Charlotte Morse, who was riding her bicycle from
>> north to south across the junction with the lights at green in her
>> favour," he said."
>>
>> http://www.richmondandtwickenhamtim...ung_cyclist.php
>>
>
> Do you agree with cyclists breaking the law.

Agree with it?

He doesn't recognise the concept.

Simon D

Squashme laid this down on his screen :
>
> Snap!!!
>
> Bloody hell, there's an echo in here.

Sorry about that - pretty amazing coincidence though!

> I blame Google. oogle.. ogle.... gle.

Yes, quite.

--
Simon

Me

In article <AJWdnffpu4VBu7LVnZ2dnUVZ8h-dnZ2d@pipex.net>, JN@NPPTG.com
says...
> Doug wrote:
> > On 15 May, 21:32, "Brimstone" <brimstone520-n...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> >> Daniel Barlow wrote:
> >>> "Brimstone" <brimstone520-n...@yahoo.co.uk> writes:
> >>>> How can it be a victimless crime when a cyclist jumps a red light,
> >>>> obstructs the path of another vehicle and causes a collision?
> >>> Interesting, that wasn't mentioned in the report I read. How many
> >>> times did that happen in the aforementioned three hours at Piccadilly
> >>> Circus, then?
> >> Was there any mention of the consequences of those vehicles passing the red
> >> light, or was the report limited to the fact of them doing it?
> >
> > Well we know that the impact force from a car is very much greater
> > than that from a bicycle even when they are going at the same speed.
> > Let's say the bike and rider weigh 100kg and the car is only 1,000kg.
> > You can see the implication can't you?
>
> Indeed we can.
>
> We also know that the impact force from a bus or train is very much
> greater than that from a car even when they are going at the same speed.
> Let's say the car weighs 1,000 kg and the bus weighs 10,000kg.
>
> You can see the implication, can't you?
>
> Ban buses.
>
> It's obvious.
>
Yes, people who drive lethal trains should be charged with murder if
they hit someone. It get worse, some trains travel at more 130mph, yes,
thats an unbelieveable 130mph, through urban and residential areas. No
wonder so many people who are hit by trains die. This is something that
MUST be stopped.

Doug

On 17 May, 09:40, "Brimstone" <brimstone520-n...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> Doug wrote:
> > On 17 May, 09:28, Tony Dragon <tony.dra...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> >> Doug wrote:
> >>> On 15 May, 21:32, "Brimstone" <brimstone520-n...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> >>>> Daniel Barlow wrote:
> >>>>> "Brimstone" <brimstone520-n...@yahoo.co.uk> writes:
> >>>>>> How can it be a victimless crime when a cyclist jumps a red
> >>>>>> light, obstructs the path of another vehicle and causes a
> >>>>>> collision?
> >>>>> Interesting, that wasn't mentioned in the report I read. How many
> >>>>> times did that happen in the aforementioned three hours at
> >>>>> Piccadilly Circus, then?
> >>>> Was there any mention of the consequences of those vehicles
> >>>> passing the red light, or was the report limited to the fact of
> >>>> them doing it?
>
> >>> Well we know that the impact force from a car is very much greater
> >>> than that from a bicycle even when they are going at the same speed.
> >>> Let's say the bike and rider weigh 100kg and the car is only
> >>> 1,000kg. You can see the implication can't you? Cyclists 43 cars
> >>> 270.
>
> >>> --
> >>> RoadPeace
> >>>http://www.roadpeace.org/
> >>> For road crash victims.
>
> >> Could you answer this question for me to iron out any misconceptions?
> >> Do you think it is OK for cyclists to break the law by going through
> >> red lights?
>
> > Depends what you mean by OK. If it is done to ensure their own safety
> > without prejudicing the safety of others then maybe.
>
> So that a "Yes" then.
>
> > Do you think it is OK for motorists to break the law by going through
> > red lights?
>
> No.
>
> Why do you have double standards Doug?

In a word 'vulnerability'. Roads are not designed for bicycles, even
though they pre-date cars, so a uniform law covering all forms of road
transport can put cyclists seriously at risk.

--
World Carfree Network
http://www.worldcarfree.net/
Help for your car-addicted friends in the U.K.

Brimstone

Doug wrote:
> On 17 May, 09:40, "Brimstone" <brimstone520-n...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> Doug wrote:
>>> On 17 May, 09:28, Tony Dragon <tony.dra...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>> Doug wrote:
>>>>> On 15 May, 21:32, "Brimstone" <brimstone520-n...@yahoo.co.uk>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> Daniel Barlow wrote:
>>>>>>> "Brimstone" <brimstone520-n...@yahoo.co.uk> writes:
>>>>>>>> How can it be a victimless crime when a cyclist jumps a red
>>>>>>>> light, obstructs the path of another vehicle and causes a
>>>>>>>> collision?
>>>>>>> Interesting, that wasn't mentioned in the report I read. How
>>>>>>> many times did that happen in the aforementioned three hours at
>>>>>>> Piccadilly Circus, then?
>>>>>> Was there any mention of the consequences of those vehicles
>>>>>> passing the red light, or was the report limited to the fact of
>>>>>> them doing it?
>>
>>>>> Well we know that the impact force from a car is very much greater
>>>>> than that from a bicycle even when they are going at the same
>>>>> speed. Let's say the bike and rider weigh 100kg and the car is
>>>>> only 1,000kg. You can see the implication can't you? Cyclists 43
>>>>> cars 270.
>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> RoadPeace
>>>>> http://www.roadpeace.org/
>>>>> For road crash victims.
>>
>>>> Could you answer this question for me to iron out any
>>>> misconceptions? Do you think it is OK for cyclists to break the
>>>> law by going through red lights?
>>
>>> Depends what you mean by OK. If it is done to ensure their own
>>> safety without prejudicing the safety of others then maybe.
>>
>> So that a "Yes" then.
>>
>>> Do you think it is OK for motorists to break the law by going
>>> through red lights?
>>
>> No.
>>
>> Why do you have double standards Doug?
>
> In a word 'vulnerability'. Roads are not designed for bicycles, even
> though they pre-date cars, so a uniform law covering all forms of road
> transport can put cyclists seriously at risk.

So are you saying that cyclists should not take care to avoid collisions?