How to touch wheels and not fall off?

Jeff Potter (of OutYourBackdoor.com)

What's the drill for this again?

I know, you go ride on the grass and give it a try. But what are you
actually supposed to do if you touch wheels? (I googled this and found
one description---it said to steer away rather than turn away which I
suppose meant instead of lean away, but I need more info than that.)

It's been a long time since I've done it and I haven't crashed any of
the times that I have (knock knock) but everyone who does it on the
club rides that I go on always does crash. So what are they doing
wrong? And what is the right way?

--JP
allbikemag.com

ST

On 5/27/08 5:14 PM, in article
9d65857a-8c87-4f02-99cd-20515ddaa48...ooglegroups.com, "Jeff
Potter (of OutYourBackdoor.com)" <JeffOYB@hotmail.com> wrote:

> What's the drill for this again?
>
> I know, you go ride on the grass and give it a try. But what are you
> actually supposed to do if you touch wheels? (I googled this and found
> one description---it said to steer away rather than turn away which I
> suppose meant instead of lean away, but I need more info than that.)
>
> It's been a long time since I've done it and I haven't crashed any of
> the times that I have (knock knock) but everyone who does it on the
> club rides that I go on always does crash. So what are they doing
> wrong? And what is the right way?
>
> --JP
> allbikemag.com


Go on another club ride...........

John Forrest Tomlinson

On Tue, 27 May 2008 17:14:28 -0700 (PDT), "Jeff Potter (of
OutYourBackdoor.com)" <JeffOYB@hotmail.com> wrote:

>What's the drill for this again?
>
>I know, you go ride on the grass and give it a try. But what are you
>actually supposed to do if you touch wheels? (I googled this and found
>one description---it said to steer away rather than turn away which I
>suppose meant instead of lean away, but I need more info than that.)
>
>It's been a long time since I've done it and I haven't crashed any of
>the times that I have (knock knock) but everyone who does it on the
>club rides that I go on always does crash. So what are they doing
>wrong?

Panicking.

> And what is the right way?

Don't let the wheel in front of you turn your front wheel. Usually
that means pushing back with your wheel, but being ready to stop doing
that the instant there is separation.

JT

Paul G.

On May 27, 5:14 pm, "Jeff Potter (of OutYourBackdoor.com)"
<Jeff...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> What's the drill for this again?
>
> I know, you go ride on the grass and give it a try. But what are you
> actually supposed to do if you touch wheels? (I googled this and found
> one description---it said to steer away rather than turn away which I
> suppose meant instead of lean away, but I need more info than that.)
>
> It's been a long time since I've done it and I haven't crashed any of
> the times that I have (knock knock) but everyone who does it on the
> club rides that I go on always does crash. So what are they doing
> wrong? And what is the right way?
>
> --JP
> allbikemag.com

It's easy, just be the guy who's rear wheel hits the other guy's front
wheel. If the guy ahead of you swerves and his rear wheel hits your
front wheel, your front wheel will be forced to turn and you will
fall. The only possibilities of escaping involve turning with him, or
braking so your front wheel is steerable again, but I doubt anyone has
fast enough reflexes to do that in time.
-Paul

John Forrest Tomlinson

On Tue, 27 May 2008 17:56:41 -0700 (PDT), "Paul G."
<carbide@egine.com> wrote:

>If the guy ahead of you swerves and his rear wheel hits your
>front wheel, your front wheel will be forced to turn and you will
>fall. The only possibilities of escaping involve turning with him, or
>braking so your front wheel is steerable again, but I doubt anyone has
>fast enough reflexes to do that in time.

If you ever get a chance, watch final sprint of Gent-Wevelgem 2004
from above. Kirsipuu comes across Hammonds front wheel for a solid 3
or 4 second and Hammonds holds it up and doesn't crash.

Also, braking is not good in that situation. Fighting agains the
force trying to turn your wheel is usually best.

Paul G.

On May 27, 6:24 pm, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com>
wrote:
> On Tue, 27 May 2008 17:56:41 -0700 (PDT), "Paul G."
>
> <carb...@egine.com> wrote:
> >If the guy ahead of you swerves and his rear wheel hits your
> >front wheel, your front wheel will be forced to turn and you will
> >fall. The only possibilities of escaping involve turning with him, or
> >braking so your front wheel is steerable again, but I doubt anyone has
> >fast enough reflexes to do that in time.
>
> If you ever get a chance, watch final sprint of Gent-Wevelgem 2004
> from above. Kirsipuu comes across Hammonds front wheel for a solid 3
> or 4 second and Hammonds holds it up and doesn't crash.
>
> Also, braking is not good in that situation. Fighting agains the
> force trying to turn your wheel is usually best.

Obviously there could be many degrees of overlapping and amounts of
force applied by a rear wheel to a front wheel, and unless you can
produce a link to a video I have no idea exactly what happened in the
case you cite. However, if someone overlaps your front wheel by a
couple of inches and continues to cross in front of you, as is
typical, the leverage and his momentum against your front wheel are
going to be very hard to overcome. If he barely touches you, of course
you have a chance, but if his momentum carries him 6" across your
wheel you're screwed.

Braking would theoretically save your ass if you could do it fast
enough, as it would free your wheel. However, as I noted, it's
doubtful anyone has fast enough reflexes.
-Paul

Amit Ghosh

On May 27, 8:14 pm, "Jeff Potter (of OutYourBackdoor.com)"
<Jeff...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> What's the drill for this again?
>
> I know, you go ride on the grass and give it a try. But what are you
> actually supposed to do if you touch wheels? (I googled this and found
> one description---it said to steer away rather than turn away which I
> suppose meant instead of lean away, but I need more info than that.)
>
> It's been a long time since I've done it and I haven't crashed any of
> the times that I have (knock knock) but everyone who does it on the
> club rides that I go on always does crash. So what are they doing
> wrong? And what is the right way?
>

dumbass,

if you lean with your wheel into the wheel in front of you, it will
support you. you can actually bang someone's rear wheel with your
front pretty hard if you want.

it is fun to do in crits and on group rides and is a good way to weed
out douchebags.

Kurgan Gringioni

On May 27, 9:15*pm, "Paul G." <carb...@egine.com> wrote:
> On May 27, 6:24 pm, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com>
> wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 27 May 2008 17:56:41 -0700 (PDT), "Paul G."
>
> > <carb...@egine.com> wrote:
> > >If the guy ahead of you swerves and his rear wheel hits your
> > >front wheel, your front wheel will be forced to turn and you will
> > >fall. *The only possibilities of escaping involve turning with him, or
> > >braking so your front wheel is steerable again, but I doubt anyone has
> > >fast enough reflexes to do that in time.
>
> > If you ever get a chance, watch final sprint of *Gent-Wevelgem 2004
> > from above. *Kirsipuu comes across Hammonds front wheel for a solid 3
> > or 4 second and Hammonds holds it up and doesn't crash.
>
> > Also, braking is not good in that situation. *Fighting agains the
> > force trying to turn your wheel is usually best.
>
> Obviously there could be many degrees of overlapping and amounts of
> force applied by a rear wheel to a front wheel, and unless you can
> produce a link to a video I have no idea exactly what happened in the
> case you cite. *However, if someone overlaps your front wheel by a
> couple of inches and continues to cross in front of you, as is
> typical, the leverage and his momentum against your front wheel are
> going to be very hard to overcome. If he barely touches you, of course
> you have a chance, but if his momentum carries him 6" across your
> wheel you're screwed.
>
> Braking would theoretically save your ass if you could do it fast
> enough, as it would free your wheel. However, as I noted, it's
> doubtful anyone has fast enough reflexes.



Dumbass -


That is incorrect (the statement about the reflexes).


thanks,

K. Gringioni.

Ryan Cousineau

In article
<9d65857a-8c87-4f02-99cd-20515ddaa484@34g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
"Jeff Potter (of OutYourBackdoor.com)" <JeffOYB@hotmail.com> wrote:

> What's the drill for this again?
>
> I know, you go ride on the grass and give it a try. But what are you
> actually supposed to do if you touch wheels? (I googled this and found
> one description---it said to steer away rather than turn away which I
> suppose meant instead of lean away, but I need more info than that.)
>
> It's been a long time since I've done it and I haven't crashed any of
> the times that I have (knock knock) but everyone who does it on the
> club rides that I go on always does crash. So what are they doing
> wrong? And what is the right way?

As someone who has spent a relatively large amount of time with my
wheels in weird places and a relatively small amount of time lying on
the ground, bleeding, I'd suggest that the best advice is not to panic.

The one time I found myself actually touching wheels, myself and the
other (very experienced) rider were going through a corner near the
front of the club ride.

Neither of us panicked, and we just, well...rode it out. We were
side-by-side; it was our front wheels that touched.

My undertutored theory is that most crashes result from over-controlling
rather than under-controlling, and maybe not being quite as focused
about keeping it upright (target fixation is fun!) as not-crashy riders
are.

Also, riders shouldn't generally touch wheels. That's always a good
plan. I've wacked a rear wheel once or twice with my front, and the only
advice I can offer is not to panic, and to focus on staying upright.

--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@gmail.com http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."

John Forrest Tomlinson

On Tue, 27 May 2008 21:15:22 -0700 (PDT), "Paul G."
<carbide@egine.com> wrote:

>Braking would theoretically save your ass if you could do it fast
>enough, as it would free your wheel. However, as I noted, it's
>doubtful anyone has fast enough reflexes.
No, braking would be bad, even in if you were fast enough. Braking
reduces ones control over the bike and puts more weight forward.

joseph.santaniello@gmail.com

On May 28, 7:15*am, Amit Ghosh <amit.gh...@gmail.com> wrote:

> if you lean with your wheel into the wheel in front of you, it will
> support you. you can actually bang someone's rear wheel with your
> front pretty hard if you want.


Around here that is known as "giving someone a hug".

Joseph

joseph.santaniello@gmail.com

On May 28, 11:40*am, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com>
wrote:
> On Tue, 27 May 2008 21:15:22 -0700 (PDT), "Paul G."
>
> <carb...@egine.com> wrote:
> >Braking would theoretically save your ass if you could do it fast
> >enough, as it would free your wheel. However, as I noted, it's
> >doubtful anyone has fast enough reflexes.
>
> No, braking would be bad, even in if you were fast enough. *Braking
> reduces ones control over the bike and puts more weight forward. *

Entirely true. As was your previous reply about not panicing and
leaning into the contact. But some judicious braking can be wise to
keep the overlap from getting bigger, if the rider ahead has lower
speed. Sometimes standing can help by moving the bike back a bit, just
enough to disengage. But ingeneral it is best to lean into it until
you regain your balance and "bounce" off. I suppose if one wanted to
practice, one could ride up slowly to a park bench or something and do
a track stand of sorts with the front wheel turned into the bench. In
other words the wheel touching the bench and the pressure on the bars
is what keep the rider up. Do that for a while, then "push" off with
the bars and continue riding.

I usually ride with one finger always on a brake if I am in some
situation where wheel touching may occur.

Yesterday I found myself in the middle of a big 9-guy crash, and I
attibute in no small part my lack of panic and limited brake use with
keeping me from going down. Some of the guys in the crash had no
options, but lots of them crashed IMO due to overzealous braking and
over-correction and poor control due to heavy braking. I focused on
steering.

Joseph

Donald Munro

joseph.santaniello@gmail.com wrote:
> Yesterday I found myself in the middle of a big 9-guy crash, and I
> attibute in no small part my lack of panic and limited brake use with
> keeping me from going down. Some of the guys in the crash had no options,
> but lots of them crashed IMO due to overzealous braking and
> over-correction and poor control due to heavy braking. I focused on
> steering.

Doing a bit of mountain biking helps with that as it teaches you to
be alert and not to panic when large objects materialize in your
trajectory.

Paul G.

On May 28, 2:40 am, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com>
wrote:
> On Tue, 27 May 2008 21:15:22 -0700 (PDT), "Paul G."
>
> <carb...@egine.com> wrote:
> >Braking would theoretically save your ass if you could do it fast
> >enough, as it would free your wheel. However, as I noted, it's
> >doubtful anyone has fast enough reflexes.
>
> No, braking would be bad, even in if you were fast enough. Braking
> reduces ones control over the bike and puts more weight forward.

Nothing "reduces one's control" like having one's front wheel turned
by someone else's rear wheel. I'd be happy to demonstrate. Let's make
it interesting, say $100 if you can stay upright after I clip your
front wheel with my rear. 6" of overlap ( I don't want your skewer
tearing up my spokes), we start with our wheels 12" apart. I cut in
front of you, you hit the deck and I collect the $100. Starbucks. Be
there. You'll be wearing purple afterwards, that's for sure. Unlimited
refills, just bring $100 for each match.

And how about a side bet- another $100 says I don't fall. That's one
of the most maddening things, the guy who cuts in front of you barely
notices the contact, and wonders why all those guys piled up behind
him.
-Paul